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29/11/51 Manchester United A v Leek Town
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29/11/51 Manchester United A v Leek Town

 
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Stewpot62



Joined: 30 Jan 2020
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:28 pm 
Post subject: 29/11/51 Manchester United A v Leek Town
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Have had an offer from the forum member of £250. Is this a good price or are they trying to rip me off. Got lots of stuff. Some idea of prices would be helpful

Thanks in advance

Stewart
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slightfold



Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:41 pm 
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I guess it might be one of those single sheet programmes played at The Cliff played under floodlight where it says' hold to the light to read the teams' or something similar ?All I know that some of these are valuable, it must depend on the game. Maybe Mr Millman will read your posting and give
you some idea.
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Auchinleckian
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:33 pm 
Post subject: Re: 29/11/51 Manchester United A v Leek Town
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Stewpot62 wrote:
Have had an offer from the forum member of £250. Is this a good price or are they trying to rip me off. Got lots of stuff. Some idea of prices would be helpful

Thanks in advance

Stewart


If somebody offers you £250 for a programme - a not inconsiderable sum - why would you think they may be ripping you off?
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Stewpot62



Joined: 30 Jan 2020
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:19 pm 
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Hi
I received a link suggesting a copy sold for in excess of £800 plus extras at auction. While I don’t expect that. It does point to £250 being a bit of a rip off.

I am now leaning towards sending my items to auction.

Any recommendations for a reputable auction house please.

Thanks
Stewart
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:23 pm 
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Indeed.

Also i am thinking that not all collectors will collect non 1st team progeammes so as with all programmes its only worth what someone will pay.

As you seemed to indicate you were not a specialist (and neither am I in man utd programmes) why do you consider £250 could be ripping you off ?

Maybe you should take the advice of putting your items into auction if you are worried about not getting the best price.
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Dorking



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 1929

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:32 pm 
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'ripping off' is not the most helpful description on a fellow forum member!

You do of course have the option to take it or leave it.
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manchesterunitedman1



Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Posts: 2875
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:28 pm 
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slightfold wrote:
I guess it might be one of those single sheet programmes played at The Cliff played under floodlight where it says' hold to the light to read the teams' or something similar ?All I know that some of these are valuable, it must depend on the game. Maybe Mr Millman will read your posting and give
you some idea.


Well i have been asked to comment, so i shall.

Firstly, competitive games at the Cliff commenced in 1951 and ended in 1956. These games were A team,Manchester League, Manchester Senior Cup, Gilgryst Cup, Lancashire League, and Youth Cup in the main. There were some friendly matches involving a United team, there were a few Semi-Finals of the Gilgryst cup with 2 non United teams playing to my knowledge from 1951-2 to 1956-7 i have only ever seen around 35 different programmes ever show up which makes them all super rare full stop, especially with United involved.

That is the background now back to the Forum.

Originally in this thread a member sent a link showing one if these programmes from 1951-2 sold at Graeme Budds for £854 plus 20odd % not too long ago, so i think it is reasonable to assume that as the newbie seller has seen this then he has every right to think he is getting his leg lifted and any other forum member who has joined in this subject and has suggested to the newbie that HOW does he think he is being ripped off, well it is there in BLACK & WHITE!.

Futhermore, Ray Adler has a Gilgryst Cup programme on ebay (treble99)that does not even involve a United team at £595, it has not sold so far so he has reduced it to £545, further evidence that if United are involved then a likely price is going to start considerably more than a paltry £250, so this bit is not meant to sound sarcastic in any way, but if he was still around in his crusade against such "goings on" then he would be the first to comment that the price was way under what it should be, no doubt he will PM various others to confirm that this price is someone looking to take advantage.

All i can add is that last year on ebay 3 to 4 turned out of the blue with a very tatty copy getting over 330 and some slightly better ones going for over 400 and up to nearly 600 i bet the mystery bidder was well aware of those facts.

I would say to the seller put it on ebay with a hefty reserve or send it to Budds to sell another copy and get another high offer or contact other auction houses such as Sportingold or Mullocks or Sporting Memorys all who do a great job of selling programmes and memorabilia.

Then again Mr.Stewpot- if u feel that incensed then name n shame!.



Wave

For anyone who is not familiar with these single sheets at the Cliff training ground, here is a link to the ones I have "rescued" over the years.
I do not think that besides the Buff coloured sheets I am showing, there are in my opinion no more than a 100 absolute max that have ever surfaced in the 5 years the club played matches there, which is quite incredible.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjvxNyHf

The Cliff Grounds were purchased by United in 1937 to allow players from all levels of the club's teams to train on, the ground was purchased from the Broughton Rangers Rugby Union Club who moved elsewhere.

The ground was used to play Rugby Union in Victorian times and you can see a team selection postcard from that period when it was Broughton Park Rugby Club.
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To see 16,700+ original images relating to Newton Heath & Manchester Utd 1878-2020 then visit www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/sets to see entire uploads.

1000's more images to be uploaded, to view the latest uploads go to www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/

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Last edited by manchesterunitedman1 on Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Auchinleckian
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:19 pm 
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Interesting points Leslie. Something to note though - and I had no idea they would go for such large amounts, I have to admit - if it's a dealer buying it they're going to want to be paying under market value, and that makes sound commercial sense. In most lines of business such the second resale markets, be it books, stamps, postcards, or what have you there's no point in paying anything more than fifty per cent of what you think you might get for it? In second hand book resale values you're lucky if a dealer even offers you 20% of what a book's worth, they really do squeeze tight.

Interesting point re prices, especially the old "newbie" thing, so beloved on this forum. I wonder if the seller of the other Cliff programme you mention paid anywhere near half price of what they're trying to sell it for?
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whosbrianwilson



Joined: 08 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:53 pm 
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So, with Leslie's undoubted input, whoever offered the op £250 is taking advantage (aka ripping him off)!!
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manchesterunitedman1



Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Posts: 2875
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:28 pm 
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Auchinleckian wrote:
Interesting points Leslie. Something to note though - and I had no idea they would go for such large amounts, I have to admit - if it's a dealer buying it they're going to want to be paying under market value, and that makes sound commercial sense. In most lines of business such the second resale markets, be it books, stamps, postcards, or what have you there's no point in paying anything more than fifty per cent of what you think you might get for it? In second hand book resale values you're lucky if a dealer even offers you 20% of what a book's worth, they really do squeeze tight.

Interesting point re prices, especially the old "newbie" thing, so beloved on this forum. I wonder if the seller of the other Cliff programme you mention paid anywhere near half price of what they're trying to sell it for?


John, I have no idea who offered the £250, it is as likely to be a collector as trying to obtain a rarity on the cheap as anyone else looking to earn from it by reselling but as far as what it has cost the current owner there is NO RELEVANCE whatsoever regarding that. If it is inherited as the original poster states then in effect so what?, if he has been given the stuff as a gift and wants to sell it then he is entitled to maximise where he can, if as we have seen a similar sheet from the same season hit a £1000, why should he sell it for 75% less-would you?, because I certainly would look to obtain the highest price I could.
Also, there is market value and under market value and then there is taking the Piss.

I do not subscribe to your theory that a very advanced collector or dealer should work on offering half of what it is worth, I have over the years paid over the odds to secure certain scarcities and have been rewarded when prices have escalated.

30 years ago I paid a dealer £40 for an ex binder copy of the Chelsea v United League match from 1907-08, he took my money and laughed at me saying " who pays that much"-well whose laughing now eh!. Lessons on buying and selling I think I have mastered a long time ago despite having to sell up on two occasions. You never get it right all the time, but I reckon I have bought better more times than I have had it stuffed up my rear end and that is a sentiment probably 99.9% of collectors can testify too.

Books are as you say but not everything will work to a format and in this particular case has no bearing on the discussion.

I think as far as I am concerned-I was asked to comment which I have done and for me that is yer lot, there is no more to add and I am now opting out of this post and not wishing it to DRONE on.

Last word to the original poster Mr. Stewpot, I have no idea what the other items you have but all i can say is do not be in any hurry to sell the United team sheet from the Cliff-put it away as it is not going to drop in value-and that is a fact!.

Wave
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Leslie Millman
[email protected]
Twitter: @manyuman1

To see 16,700+ original images relating to Newton Heath & Manchester Utd 1878-2020 then visit www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/sets to see entire uploads.

1000's more images to be uploaded, to view the latest uploads go to www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/

Click any images-14.8+ MILLION views to date to the Flickr site since 2007 growing every day. New Uploads weekly. Thank You to one & all for visiting!
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 990

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:13 pm 
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[quote="Auchinleckian"] - if it's a dealer buying it they're going to want to be paying under market value, and that makes sound commercial sense. In most lines of business such the second resale markets, be it books, stamps, postcards, or what have you there's no point in paying anything more than fifty per cent of what you think you might get for it? In second hand book resale values you're lucky if a dealer even offers you 20% of what a book's worth, they really do squeeze tight.
/quote]

Absolutely. I certainly dont want to condone anyone being "ripped off" but it is a bit of a fine line. When a dealer buys items he/she never pays top/market value price but a price at which they can make a profit. However if a collector offers a lower price than perceived "market value" then they are accused of ripping somebody off. An interesting double standard.

Similarly we have threads of collectors sharing "their bargains" or picking up poorly described auction items with gems in it. I would wager a lot of money that not a single person who has got a good deal/bargain has then given the seller more money because they got something for less than "market value". Nobody' thinks of those situations as buyers ripping people off. The reality is that all collectors want to pay as little as possible for items.

If someone posts items on here which are desirable then i would anticipate that there will be enough people commenting/advising that the poster will have adequate information to decide on their preferred option. Indeed some people may want a quick sale rather than fuss about with it while others will want to ring every last penny out of an item. I am highly confident that enough forum members will contribute their thoughts to enable the owner of the item to make a sound decision.

I know there are some who get on their soapbox about people being ripped off but i dont think the situation is quite as black and white as it is made to seem.

(PS it was not me who offered the £250 Smile
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galmpton



Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:11 pm 
Post subject: 29/11/51 Manchester United A v Leek Town
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Hi I am not expert but my view for what is worth is that the early cliff games which sell for big money are the early youth games Wrexham and Rotherham etc the Manchester Utd v Leek Town sold at a Graham Budd auction for £420 plus com but on another day could have sold for more or less,
And I did not offer £250 for the item
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:03 pm 
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Very interesting. So if a Man Utd v Leek sold at auction for £420 then after commision incl VAT the seller may have pocketed nearer £330-350. So maybe the £250 offer was not so outrageous after all Sherlock
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Stewpot62



Joined: 30 Jan 2020
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:51 pm 
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Thankyou for all the advise. Lots of people have posed or messaged me with advise and offers. Thankyou to Cantona and glampton among others for their offers, but at the moment I am going to sit on my items until I have the time to sort things properly.

Many Thanks again
Stewart
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