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Vova12



Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Posts: 358
Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:02 pm 
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In any case I will stay here until this ship sinks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzcv5TJkJBA

Sherlock
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sharrowblade
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3189
Location: Beautiful Downtown Bramall Lane

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:00 pm 
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Read with interest all comments regarding the new forum.

IMO the current situation is unfortunate, but to degrade the efforts of Pastpirate and Tynie Topics is plain wrong. They have had the balls to attempt to do something about the unpredictable nature of this site, and they should be supported rather than sniped at from the galleries as it were.

Sadly, this forum, the original one has now become rudderless. the great Raymondo is now free to ride roughshod over everyone else, whilst his sycophants climb on board and sing from his song-sheet.

He must be creaming his pants at this sudden turn in events.

Nobody has ever doubted Ray has a wonderful collection, (he's never been shy in telling us), nobody has ever doubted his knowledge (again, not a shrinking violet when reminding us) and indeed at times he's had his moments with his acerbic wit that has even made me chuckle.

I'm quite sure that if Ray had been about in the 19th century, he'd had been labelled a Victorian dandy, a braggard, going around slapping the swinish multitude in the face with a glove because he didn't deem them worthy.
Almost with certainty, he would have been shot at dawn one morning in a duel.

Even now in the dying aftermath of the site, the majority of comments are embittered with bitterness.. (oh its not very interesting, it doesn't get as many views, I'm getting loads on here etc etc)

There's talks of ego's, but whose may I enquire?
Tynies and Jamie's....pull the other one. or
Ray.....the self confessed bard of the programme collecting world, who can't keep away whilst continuing the grim façade of 'I'm not bothered' etc etc.

In the past, too many have fallen for the reliable 'I'm always here to help' bluster, whilst slating everyone else as bedroom bandits, ten bob collectors, shysters and the constant disdain for anything 'Prediction League'. The calling of Pete, (Pete's picture palace) is disgraceful.

Get the man a throne FFS. It must be tiring being a God.

And yet,.....having said all that, and lets be honest, even Ray will admit he can be 'a bit of a twat' at times, if the new forum is to flourish then I think its time that our community, if you can call it that...ends the divisiveness which we have witnessed over the past couple of years.

Its been mentioned many times that forums flourish with difference of opinions, I believe that's true, people can have a conversation, be of a different persuasion and not fall out. I even know a Wednesday fan.
Clearly, this does not involve being a complete twat to new and even old posters even if you suspect that all is not what it appears.

Its time to close this site down, and move on to the new one, this one currently is more popular not because of the content but because of the familiarity and the disparity in number of members, if there are any threads that people want to bring over than so be it. From badges to Rosettes, programmes to Garden gnomes, the bottom line is we share a common interest. Having two forums as Dave mentioned splits interest.

There's a place for everyone, and yes that includes Ray.

Our hobby is not blessed with massive numbers, and we shouldn't be alienating one another no matter whose side of the fence we sit on.

We need to get everyone under the same umbrella, members should feel comfortable about contributing, no matter the value, of their collection, items or questions being asked, without that fear of being 'rubbished'. There is no need to sneer at anybody. There's already enough of that in Society.

At times without fear of sounding liberal some of the threads of the past spiralled into playground spats and at times became simply offensive.

The opportunity is there.....get together now......draw a line under the past. Its time to move on.

If you don't like the layout of the new forum, then don't slate for the sake of it. Suggest alternates, even if they're not workable. Contribute.

I applaud Tynie and Jamie for their efforts.

Happy collecting Smile
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pastpirate
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 2316
Location: The blue half of Bristol

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:48 pm 
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Sharrow's last two messages have fully explained the situation so it really is up to everyone whether they want to stay here or move on over to the new forum. I (And I am sure) the other mods have generally had an easy time looking after this place as over the years there have been very few trouble makers. Just one has been a recuring pain joining with many different usernames over the years each time he got banned. Why people have to insult others and just be plain nasty I just don't understand. Maybe he has such a pathetic real life that he likes to make others feel bad to try and make himself feel better. Just be warned if you say anything to upset him then expect some pretty vile messages on here and via PM. Every single person on here is more than welcome on the new forum, your choice. Only one can please stay away. (Bet he's registered allready though even though he tells us he has no interest. Just remember that there is NOTHING that can be done when the vile one starts insulting people. Good luch over here, I hope people enjoy the old forum. I may look in every now and then but from now on your on your own. Cheers, Jamie.
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Vova12



Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Posts: 358
Location: Moscow

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Perhaps all misnderstandings and grievances will be forgotten?
Yes, I need to say thanks to guys for new forum. But it is possible to save this forum.
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whosbrianwilson



Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:12 pm 
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I presume it is not possible to just remove the ramblings of bluejames?
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Auchinleckian
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Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 4250

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:19 pm 
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I was urged to have a new look on the old Forum by a fellow collector last night. As I hadn't been on it since changing over to the new one I was reluctant to do so, but when I was advised that "the nutters have truly taken over the asylum" I felt an irresistible urge......

Having read the ramblings re the new site I realised why, for me, it was so good to get away from the old one. Good as it was, and had been, because it was definitely a groundbreaker for people like myself there was no doubt that there were major problems with it. I don't intend to go over these all again, but I very much welcome the input of other collectors who took the time, and initiative, to prepare for the eventual demise of this site.

As someone who actually had something like an 18 month sojourn from the old site because of the abusive nature of some of the posters, I only returned once I realised that a certain dealer / collector would not be contributing to the site again having been banned for his abusive posts.

I look at the current comments and think not much has changed, although my previous comment wasn't about bluejames, the comments that now abound on here do show a very limited respect for other collectors. Glad to be away, and most definitely won't be back, but would hope people can eventually move over to the new site.

John Holroyd.
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whosbrianwilson



Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:59 pm 
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I'm with you, John.

Onwards and upwards
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footballprogrammes.com



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 144
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:14 pm 
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Firstly may I make it clear that in no way am I trying to 'disrespect' anyone whatsoever. I am only trying to be constructive and give an honest opinion. In my view this forum is the biggest medium for collectors/dealers the hobby has ever seen and I mean BIGGER than Programme Monthly in its heyday. The ability to be able to comment immediately on topics such as the collapse of Football Sports Auctions, the sad passing of prominent figures in the football programme World, the shady business practises of various ebay vendors has been revolutionary. PM could never match the spontenuity of immediate discussion as we had to wait up for three weeks for news to break. Then another whole month for reaction. That's why its so important for it to survive and in my opinion for it to be under one umbrella. I am not going to repeat the details of why it should remain on this url in myfirst post but I would like to respond to Tynies comments

Tynie Topics wrote:
Part Pirate (Jamie) has emailed and messaged Craig (forum owner) on several occasions over the last few months with no response. He is unable to contact him.
- Craig no longer is interested in football programmes as far as we can ascertain, and therefore has little or no interest in the forum or website.


It's difficult to believe the guy has not answered emails on this topic for 6 months. Does Jamie not have Craig's phone number? Can he not ring the company he works for? I seem to recall Craig either runs or works for the company that set up the site in the first place. Hence the excellent carefully designed functionality of it. If he has not communicated with Craig how do you know he is not interested? He is clearly still paying for it to be hosted.

Tynie Topics wrote:
Past Pirate cannot moderate the forum effectively as some functions no longer work, and he obviously cannot carry out the functions of an administrator (that’s Craig)
- We can’t archive the forum for posterity, that would be something Craig would need to do.
- The forum is effectively a runaway train, at some point it will hit the buffers.


I note the new site was created in 2017. Why not mothball it until such time that this one ceases to exist? You could post regular messages on this one that should it suddenly disappear the details of where the new one is. I know you have flagged difficulties in logging on but that hasn't stopped this thread being the biggest on forum for a long time including the new one.

Tynie Topics wrote:
The new forum isn’t a “rival”.

The new forum is free to set-up and use, therefore unless we pay to upgrade it in order to access more functions then it is what it is. Basic, but still very usable and it mirrors as close as we can to this place (for info, there is a section on the new forum for advertising upcoming Fairs and always had been). This forum is bespoke and was designed by Craig and presumably costs money to run. Any new forum will not replicate this place without money and someone who knows what they’re doing as far as forums/website design is concerned.


I am sure you didn't intend it to be but it IS a rival. Its splitting the relatively small band of collectors making each site lack the usual regular content.

I have given my views on what could possibly be done to save this site on the current url. If it can't be saved then the new one has to be improved which as Tynie has indicated costs money. Two suggestions:

1, Why not approach the auction houses to see if one will sponsor it? eg rename it the 'Football Programme Forum sponsored by Mullocks'

2, Levy £1 per week on the weekly football predictions. Not a huge price to pay for those who are getting a little more out of the site than other visitors.

Either of these should provide the funds for an upgrade to the current level.
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http://stores.ebay.co.uk/FOOTBALL-PROGRAMMES-WAREHOUSE
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Dorking



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 1913

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:54 am 
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There are adverts at the top, side and bottom of every page of posts, so it certainly appears to me that the site generates its own funds to allow it to remain to be hosted

Still very much enjoying seeing the bluejames' memorabilia, that's not sucking up, it's reality, as I would enjoy seeing anyone's collections.

If anyone is interested in my Crystal Palace stuff, or has a related query they are welcome to ask me and I try to help. I'm not an expert on Palace programmes though, so don't ask me about some postponed game from 40 years ago!
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Raxfactor



Joined: 16 Jan 2020
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:35 pm 
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I have been a watcher for some time but have decided to come out into the open as this existing site does seem to better than the new one which i registered for, and for that reason alone seems to be worth joining this as well before if and when it disappears.
As for what people choose to share the more the better, and whatever comments are made nobody is forced to respond.
For my part I will just look and enjoy as I have done following links to flicker pages or at the uploaded images.
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GBE



Joined: 30 Nov 2019
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:41 pm 
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It seems that neither site is the solution, but this one is still the better option in my opinion.
I do check the other one from time to time though

Would it not be better for everyone to come together and form a new site under this address and people make a small contribution, I’d be willing to contribute say 20 pounds towards the cause, also I think the suggestion of a sponsor is a great idea. I think that would be a positive move rather than what we have at the moment.
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:47 am 
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An interesting thread and topic in general. Also i suspect it demonstrates how written words sometimes come across not quite how meant. The comments about the new forum maybe an "ego" thing and the comments questioing whether the mods tried hard enough to contact Craig do seem a bit heavy handed although i suspect they weren't meant to be. And comments about personal agendas etc also seem a bit much.

We should remember that the mods are trying to manage the forum on a voluntary basis so should be supported rather than harangued. Anyone is perfectly free to step up and help or even take on the role of running the forum but as in most things in life it is easier to criticise than actually do something. Yes there are loads of excuses eg am too busy, not computer expert etc etc but the current guys are just getting on and doing.....voluntarily.

If their view is that the work they need to do to keep this functioning effectively is now too much then i take them on face value. Why should they have to justify why they do not spend more of their free time doing it.

In my experience in these types of situation the most effective way to go forward is to simply shut one site on a specified date and then focus purely on the other site. Otherwise i agree with the above comment that all that will happen is competing sites and a poorer community.

I actually agree that this site is visually better than the new site and when functioning well (which is not always ! ) it is easy to navigate. However there is no reason why the new site cant function equally well if everyone gets on board in a collaborative constructive mentally.

I do however reflect with a wry smile that Ray has said umpteen times how he has no interest in this forum, thinks most of the contributors are not to his liking (to put it mildly), the topics are boring , he is only here to prevent newbies being ripped off.... but now that he has free reign to "wave his willy around" it is the best thing since sliced bread and must be maintained.
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Thedoog10



Joined: 20 Feb 2018
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Can not log in for some reason!!!.
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Ruud Van Driver



Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 1260

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:42 pm 
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footballprogrammes.com wrote:
I have given my views on what could possibly be done to save this site on the current url. If it can't be saved then the new one has to be improved which as Tynie has indicated costs money. Two suggestions:

1, Why not approach the auction houses to see if one will sponsor it? eg rename it the 'Football Programme Forum sponsored by Mullocks'

2, Levy £1 per week on the weekly football predictions. Not a huge price to pay for those who are getting a little more out of the site than other visitors.

Either of these should provide the funds for an upgrade to the current level.


Another suggestion to raise funds could be a 5% levy for sellers on any sales made via the forum, whether by straight sale or offers lists whereby the minimum offer could be the amount used for the 5% calculation. Not a huge price to pay for those who are getting a little more out of the site than other visitors.
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:30 pm 
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Indeed Ray your scenarios around this forum are correct. My point was more in response to the concern about 2 competing sites. The only solution to have only 1 site is either by mothballing the new one or just closing this one if the mods no longer feel it is manageable. I wasn't particularly looking for support either way but just putting it out there as a solution as i wasn't aware that minority views were not welcome.

With regards your question of why i have "waded in" .... it is to provide support to others who have been subject to unnecessary name calling and insults. You are right that i don't know you.....nor Leslie for that matter and have no interest in kissing anyones arse let alone a man utd supporter one. In fact i have no idea on your reputation or leslie's as most of my collecting interactions are with arsenal collectors about arsenal things.

My so called wading in has only ever occurred in response to what you have written on this forum. Another great example was recently when a forum member asked for help about identifying an autograph from Newton Heath. .....he didnt ask for a valuation or offer it for sale, just some help. He (or she) was basically accused of being a fraudster, peddling fake items. Yet it turned out he (or she) had purchased it several years ago from a leading and well respected football memorabilia auction house. Frankly your treatment of him (or her) plus some of the other contributors to that thread was quite distasteful and derogatory. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ? That is one example.

If you look back at the other times i have "waded" in you will see it follows the same pattern ie in response to your behaviour.
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goonerboy



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:34 pm 
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Sadly you miss the point. The not so subtle insinuation in that thread was that the poster/enquirer was the fraudster. Now it may well be those autographs are fake however it appears the poster was the victim not the criminal yet he (she) was treated as if he was the criminal.
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craig
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Joined: 22 Nov 2014
Posts: 1331

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:32 am 
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Hello all!!

What an interesting topic!

Firstly, anyone who has said that I am no longer actively collecting and do not visit this forum anymore is 100% accurate.

Secondly, Jamie has done a fantastic job looking after this forum for the last few years and I am very thankful for this.

I am only aware of this topic and situation as Leslie messaged me a few hours ago.

I have checked my emails and as far as I can see in 2019 received two emails from Jamie;

One in May to add a new section, which I did and at the time gave Jamie my work address as my FPC email address does get cluttered with spam so is easy to miss an email (though I haven't in this case as I have just searched it!!)

The other was 2 months prior in March as Jamie was having a problem accessing the admin section of the site so after a few messages back and forth, I asked for a screenshot to see the problem but didn't receive a response.

Also, in my PMs here I have had a message from 1 user in March 2019 also, having issues logging in.

Whilst I don't visit this forum, I would not wish to leave it die, but if I do not know of any issues, then I can not resolve them.

The forum generates a lot of traffic on a server which is not cheap, even when hosted by my previous company, Internet Influence. The adverts cover the cost of hosting which is around £75 per month. The website is currently 8gb and uses aroudn 100-120gb of bandwidth a month!!

I know however that Internet Influence are looking to migrate to new servers, so will speak to them and see what the situation is.

This forum has many features you will not get with an off the shelf platform as it was custom built down to every little detail, taking hundreds of hours of labour.

The platform it is based on however is now very old and I had thought many times about migrating it all over to a new platform, but was worried that would mean losing all the custom functions, as you can see with proboards.

If I was to do this however, I would have needed to find a way to keep all the URLs the same as there are tens of thousands of posts here which is a massive reference to anyone in the hobby and therefore attracts thousands of people a month through its organics listings in Google. A new forum on a new domain just won't do this.

Anyway, as I say above, I have no interest in developing new functionality but I would like to keep this forum going as I know from hundreds of messages I have received over the last 12 years, it brings joy to many. If someone could please let me know what issues are occurring on this site, we can turn this post into a positive and I can fix the issues, as it seems many of you do not wish to move which is good to see. Also, for every active poster you also get many people who just read from the sidelines
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Eddie Reeve



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:46 am 
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Great to hear from you Craig. I think your post puts an end to the argument. Like many I prefer the feel of the old site so I thank the people who have set up the new site but suggest it should be put back into hibernation just in case it should be needed at some time in the future.
I trust admin have the powers to remove any posters should that be required?
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craig
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Joined: 22 Nov 2014
Posts: 1331

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:24 am 
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Hi Eddie,
Im not sure what access there is to admin at the moment.
However, i have beenable to see issues logging in and ending up at white blank screens? Is this what others are experiencing?
Ive done some digging this morning and this appears to happen as you should be redirected, but the automatic redirection doesnt work for some reason.

Ill try and get to the root of this first, but from memory, this was something to do with the issue Jamie and I discussed last March for him to get to admin too

Keep you all updated
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footballprogrammes.com



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 144
Location: London

PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:33 pm 
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Hi Craig,

Many thanks for your reply. I am delighted to hear of your positive comments regarding the future of the site. Thanks also to Leslie Millman for taking the initiative in contacting Craig to advise him of the situation which as he says, he knew nothing of.

As I have said in one my earlier posts on this thread, it is clear to see the huge amount of design expertise and effort that went into its construction of this site and it would have been a tremendous blow to all of us to have lost the immense amount of information contributed by thousands of collectors over the last 12 years.

I very much look forward to a further update from Craig when he has had time to look into the issues, consider the way forward as well as any enhancements that can be incorporated.

Leslie, I am sure I am not alone in saying I hope you will recommence sharing your amazing collection with all of us on the football programme forum in the very near future.
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http://stores.ebay.co.uk/FOOTBALL-PROGRAMMES-WAREHOUSE
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