Brocks Manchester City pre war List

[BAZZABAGGIES]

Its going to bring the price down a lot..

Ive got three 1930s Pre War Man City homes and had them for a long time priced at £75 each..

[goonerboy]

treble99 wrote:

I can honestly say that men of honour with reputations to protect got together

I assume you are not including yourself in that crowd. You came on the board with all your "trash" talk about the lot being a pile of crap but probably most people realised that you were just trying to put people off from bidding because you had an interest in picking up some of the items in that lot and ideally didn't want the price to go high or lose out.

Reality is that a lot of people on here knew pretty well it would not sell for 500-600 but 10 or 20 or 30 times that figure and unless you are a real dealer or a man city collector then difficult or not worth coughing up £15k + because most people on here would only actually want items vs their own team. I didn't follow the auction but as it reached £15k then clearly there were other interested and serious buyers but in order to assume that there is a profit in something you need to make assumptions about what will sell and for how much. Most dealers I know have often told me that its all very well buying big lots but no matter what they are there is always a significant percent of it that just doesn't shift. So I assume that any dealers following the auction or bidding for it had factored that in to their estimation of worth.

Anyway so what if a collector got it and at a respectable price instead of a dealer and divided it up with his contacts/friends. I just don't see where the bragging rights are. Sometimes collectors get things other times dealers. So what.

[BAZZABAGGIES]

When I buy large good lots at auctions you always get collectors coming up to you at an auction and say theres one in there i need.
To be honest they are real pains in the asses trying to get things on the cheap.

Few months back i purchased around 30 Villa Pre war with an average price of around £50 each with commision. I was approached afterwards by three collectors who wanted to purchase them at £50 each.
Cheeky Sods

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

Customers, eh? Who'd have them?

[RoddyN]

So after having paid too much at auction it goes up on your back board at £100 per programme and stays there for 5 years. Nobody is happy in that scenario. In Treble's case everyone is happy as they have shared the spoils. It appears that some dealers have become bitter and twisted in recent years if they don't always get their way as collectors have started outbidding them at auctions where morally they shouldn't be if all they want to do is win the lot and then sell back to the collector who they have just outbid.

[BAZZABAGGIES]

Most collectors are dealers anyway. Its just they dont declare their income

[treble99]

goonerboy wrote:

treble99 wrote: I can honestly say that men of honour with reputations to protect got together I assume you are not including yourself in that crowd. You came on the board with all your "trash" talk about the lot being a pile of crap but probably most people realised that you were just trying to put people off from bidding because you had an interest in picking up some of the items in that lot and ideally didn't want the price to go high or lose out. Reality is that a lot of people on here knew pretty well it would not sell for 500-600 but 10 or 20 or 30 times that figure and unless you are a real dealer or a man city collector then difficult or not worth coughing up £15k + because most people on here would only actually want items vs their own team. I didn't follow the auction but as it reached £15k then clearly there were other interested and serious buyers but in order to assume that there is a profit in something you need to make assumptions about what will sell and for how much. Most dealers I know have often told me that its all very well buying big lots but no matter what they are there is always a significant percent of it that just doesn't shift. So I assume that any dealers following the auction or bidding for it had factored that in to their estimation of worth. Anyway so what if a collector got it and at a respectable price instead of a dealer and divided it up with his contacts/friends. I just don't see where the bragging rights are. Sometimes collectors get things other times dealers. So what.

There are no bragging tights.Just facts
Some collectors have got together and agreed to pay a price for these programmes
They then put one man forward to do the bidding
They outbid two dealers,as indeed they were entitled to do.

The two key facts are that the two dealers stopped a long way short of the value they "could" have bid and still made a healthy profit
It is obviously and understandably not everybody's cup of tea
It is equally understandable that every dealer works to a different profit margin
That's why they were never going to buy it
What does amuse me is that some people on this forum feel the need to chirp up and explain that a serious overpayment has been made
In actual fact a serious underpayment has been made and as stated everybody clearly is happy including the people that puff their chests out and say "madness"
I am just pointing out that it is not madness at all

Let's face it most genuine dealers get a torrid time on this forum by people with opinions.
You will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable person in the hobby than Barry
What do you want to do?
Ban him for talking straight!!

Ban him from what
A forum full of bedroom bandits and non collecting collectors or two bob fish and chip shop merchants
Obviously that doesn't apply to everybody but watch now the barrage of abuse i get from people who believe i am having a go at them personally

Well i say "if the cap fits etc etc"

[BAZZABAGGIES]

Thanks Ray for your support the cheques in the post.
Its only the foreigners that wanted me banned (Mostly Scottish)..

Some of the well known dealers are in Brazil and they would have gone higher From my point of view i knew it would go well and it was a long way to go chasing one lot and i knew a few who were going.


I went to an Auction in Shrewsbury several months back. There were a lot of 1930s Old Non League that were described as Football magazines over 20 lots.
In the room was a well known collector and his face dropped when he saw me.
Not because of my ugly face but he assumed he would be the only other person interested in the programmes. We had a quick chat and i told him i would buy all the lots and we could split them up afterwards.

So i purchased over 60 pre war non league for just over £300. We put them all on the floor of the car park and took it in turns picking them. If we had gone against each other we would have ended up paying a lot more.

[treble99]

You covered all my points Barry

There are a thousand reasons why this went to the right place and at the right price

It was not like it was a big secret

It was on the saleroom.com and although initially really badly described it was soon well reported everywhere,including this forum mostly by people just getting busy
They will of course claim they were helping fellow collectors but that is not believed by me

It just tickles me when the know alls feel obliged to defend how right they were,as opposed to accepting how wrong they were

The dealers,in Brazil,would indeed have pushed it up a bit higher but having still lost(they would have done) they wouldn't come on here and say how daft the price was

It tickles me when they try to get a moretorium on here

You see 200 pre war Gillingham on offer with an estimate of £400-500 and 50 people try to do a deal with a tenner each
They have a massive debate about who the bidder will be and who gets what and thn they sell for £10k to a dealer and they all start about how stupid the price was and how stupid the dealer was
That is until they get broken up and sold at auction at £150 each and raise £25/30k
That's when the conversation changes to how stupid the collectors must be

A wise man once told me it is not a sin to be broke but it is a sin to look broke

[RoddyN]

Other than the xenophobic remark which is totally unnecessary, the last 2 postings are excellent and to the point. I do wish we had more harmony and friendship in this hobby. It does appear to me that many people are trying to always pick a fight with others,mostly down to Schadenfreude and jealousy.

[kcs]

treble99 wrote:

What does amuse me is that some people on this forum feel the need to chirp up and explain that a serious overpayment has been made In actual fact a serious underpayment has been made and as stated everybody clearly is happy including the people that puff their chests out and say "madness" I am just pointing out that it is not madness at all

Blackburn collection springs to mind here too...
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[goonerboy]

[quote="treble99
What does amuse me is that some people on this forum feel the need to chirp up and explain that a serious overpayment has been made
In actual fact a serious underpayment "
I am just pointing out that it is not madness at all"[/quote]

interesting comment and slightly revisionist history. Somebody came on this board and said

"not sure what you mean by plenty of good condition
They've been stored somewhere damp, ALL have rusty staples
Many have foxing, Many have what the auction house describe as mucky and crumpled covers. Some have pieces missing throughout the programme. It needs very careful inspection as some aren't worth anything much at all. I think when you've sorted out what is acceptable you might not think it is that good after all "

yes that was you !

[treble99]

kcs wrote:

treble99 wrote: What does amuse me is that some people on this forum feel the need to chirp up and explain that a serious overpayment has been made In actual fact a serious underpayment has been made and as stated everybody clearly is happy including the people that puff their chests out and say "madness" I am just pointing out that it is not madness at all Blackburn collection springs to mind here too...

Absolutely right

When do you see so many programmes from such a hard to find club from that era in one go
The collector buyer was ridiculed on here by a lot of munchkins but one more time everybody was happy

[martino]

OK Treble you all got a good deal - we have all heard that many times - so can we move on something more interesting!!!!

[BAZZABAGGIES]

Yes where is Dangermouse sorry I meant Dangerman

[kcs]

Treble - out of interest, has a similar sized Manchester United collection ever hit an auction as one big lot?

Guessing one of the biggest collections to go under the hammer was the Scott Chesire collection?
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[BAZZABAGGIES]

Not one lot that i can recall.

Leslie Millman sold off his spares

Manchester United Football Memorabila 10th April 2000 at Old Trafford over 1,000 lots Phillips Auctioneers..

[mustard68]

"they outbid two dealers.."

what makes you think they were dealers?

[kcs]

BAZZABAGGIES wrote:

Leslie Millman sold off his spares Manchester United Football Memorabila 10th April 2000 at Old Trafford over 1,000 lots Phillips Auctioneers

Thanks Barry.
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[treble99]

mustard68 wrote:

"they outbid two dealers.." what makes you think they were dealers?

Well they stopped at dealer sort of levels,if you bear in mind
1 They might not have noticed the 1937 Charity Shield
2 They might not have noticed the City v Manchester United in the Lancs cup that was not noted

My valuation of full retail of possibly £25k is obviously only an opinion
Other values that have been put to me are nearer £23k

At an underbidder of £14500 plus commission you are a buyer at almost £17k
As a dealer then a profit of £6-9k represents 25 to 35% which is fair enough
After that the margins start to become tight for something that you are undoubtably going to have to carry a portion of for a fair time as after the initial rush tehre will be some dead meat

That is the basis on my assuming it was a dealer or two on the internet.

It could of course have been a collector with a budget of around £15k to spend which is fair enough or possibly a collector who got his valuation wrong
It does however feel like dealer bids at a fair level