Your opinions wanted!

[sunderlandcollector]

Guys, I am compiling an article to be included in issue 16 of Independent View on the future of football programmes as you see it.

In view of the announcements from Scotland that two clubs will not be issuing programmes this season, what does the future hold for smaller clubs' programmes and programmes in general?

Any feedback would be appreciated (and possibly used with your name tagged among the credits/column lines) so please let me know via PM or on the site. Deadline for inclusion is 15 October 2011.

Thanks,
Gary Wilson,
Editor.

[Tintowner]

We have to look at the way life was before the internet, and before that, the television. The only way to obtain information (other than the radio) was via printed form.
Newspapers were obviously the general way of obtaining any sort of information regarding current affairs, announcements and the like. Sporting news was always at the back of these pages and mostly vague, especially if you were a supporter of some of the lesser clubs.
Local newspapers were the next level of finding news on your club and many did this very well.
After that, the club match programme was invaluable to the supporter, it gave him the info the papers didnt cover, a link between the club, player and supporter.
We then had an influx of football magazines such as Charles Buchan, Goal, Shoot and all the others. these were good but they still didnt give the personal touch of the match programme.
Over the seasons, club programmes started to alter in content and appearance. They started to become more glossy and resemble the magazines that you found at the newsagents.
The emergence of the internet changed everything forever. information at your fingertips in an instant, and, for most, at a cost of a relatively low monthly payment.
This access has had an affect on everybody who has access to it. You could exist without having to leave your house if you wished.
Because of the internet, many things have suffered in some form or another, none moreso than in anything that is printed.
Newspapers and magazines have seen a drastic reduction in sales, forcing many to fold and others, such as dailys, to become weeklys.
Our beloved match programme has also become a victim of the internet. Sales are down everywhere. all the info you want on your club is available from your keyboard.
Many of us though, still cherish that piece of printed paper, even though they now resemble something totally foreign to what they were years ago. The feeling of going to a ground and buying the programme still does it for me. most collectors know that feeling when you arrive somewhere to find out that there is nothing printed, or worse, there is, but have all sold out!.....that affects me greatly.
I still think that there is a need for programmes, maybe to go back to the days of just the basics (like Carlisle did last season) would get people back on board. Iwant to see a league table without all the stuff around such as percentages of win ratios, goal assists, passes made, passes missed miles covered.... i dont want all that.
Something easy on the eye, something with the team you are playing on the cover in letters that you can see (you know what i mean).
Will it ever happen, will clubs just give up and not bother. are they prepared to lose that link?
Some have already made that decision, I hope that it proves to be the wrong one.

Thank you
Rob Holt

[sunderlandcollector]

Tintowner wrote:

We have to look at the way life was before the internet, and before that, the television. The only way to obtain information (other than the radio) was via printed form. Newspapers were obviously the general way of obtaining any sort of information regarding current affairs, announcements and the like. Sporting news was always at the back of these pages and mostly vague, especially if you were a supporter of some of the lesser clubs. Local newspapers were the next level of finding news on your club and many did this very well. After that, the club match programme was invaluable to the supporter, it gave him the info the papers didnt cover, a link between the club, player and supporter. We then had an influx of football magazines such as Charles Buchan, Goal, Shoot and all the others. these were good but they still didnt give the personal touch of the match programme. Over the seasons, club programmes started to alter in content and appearance. They started to become more glossy and resemble the magazines that you found at the newsagents. The emergence of the internet changed everything forever. information at your fingertips in an instant, and, for most, at a cost of a relatively low monthly payment. This access has had an affect on everybody who has access to it. You could exist without having to leave your house if you wished. Because of the internet, many things have suffered in some form or another, none moreso than in anything that is printed. Newspapers and magazines have seen a drastic reduction in sales, forcing many to fold and others, such as dailys, to become weeklys. Our beloved match programme has also become a victim of the internet. Sales are down everywhere. all the info you want on your club is available from your keyboard. Many of us though, still cherish that piece of printed paper, even though they now resemble something totally foreign to what they were years ago. The feeling of going to a ground and buying the programme still does it for me. most collectors know that feeling when you arrive somewhere to find out that there is nothing printed, or worse, there is, but have all sold out!.....that affects me greatly. I still think that there is a need for programmes, maybe to go back to the days of just the basics (like Carlisle did last season) would get people back on board. Iwant to see a league table without all the stuff around such as percentages of win ratios, goal assists, passes made, passes missed miles covered.... i dont want all that. Something easy on the eye, something with the team you are playing on the cover in letters that you can see (you know what i mean). Will it ever happen, will clubs just give up and not bother. are they prepared to lose that link? Some have already made that decision, I hope that it proves to be the wrong one. Thank you Rob Holt

Thanks for your interesting and detailed opinion Rob, and thanks for taking the time out to put this together. May I use this in its entirety as I have other also received emails from collectors offering their opinions. It looks as though I can do something on a larger scale than I first thought, maybe eight pages! I will send you a copy of issue 16, please PM or email me your contact details. - Thanks again, it's much appreciated. Gary Wilson, Editor.

[Kickoff3pm]

Over printing of cup finals is killing the market. Add that to the cost of modern programmes and the size with postage costs and collecting todays issues is very expensive.

But I suppose the main problem with football programmes is the same for most aspects of the game. Thats the sure lack of heroes on the pitch and the fact that it's pointless building up a favourite player because he'll be playing for someone else next season. So why keep programmes full of players who have fucked you over ?

[Posh1959]

I do not collect modern programmes, purely due to their size and expense. They take up so much room and lack character, if clubs were to revert to smaller chaper issues i believe more would sell, as for modern cup finals and internationals what dross and the size it totally ott.

[Fishy]

Tintowner wrote:

We have to look at the way life was before the internet, and before that, the television. The only way to obtain information (other than the radio) was via printed form. Newspapers were obviously the general way of obtaining any sort of information regarding current affairs, announcements and the like. Sporting news was always at the back of these pages and mostly vague, especially if you were a supporter of some of the lesser clubs. Local newspapers were the next level of finding news on your club and many did this very well. After that, the club match programme was invaluable to the supporter, it gave him the info the papers didnt cover, a link between the club, player and supporter. We then had an influx of football magazines such as Charles Buchan, Goal, Shoot and all the others. these were good but they still didnt give the personal touch of the match programme. Over the seasons, club programmes started to alter in content and appearance. They started to become more glossy and resemble the magazines that you found at the newsagents. The emergence of the internet changed everything forever. information at your fingertips in an instant, and, for most, at a cost of a relatively low monthly payment. This access has had an affect on everybody who has access to it. You could exist without having to leave your house if you wished. Because of the internet, many things have suffered in some form or another, none moreso than in anything that is printed. Newspapers and magazines have seen a drastic reduction in sales, forcing many to fold and others, such as dailys, to become weeklys. Our beloved match programme has also become a victim of the internet. Sales are down everywhere. all the info you want on your club is available from your keyboard. Many of us though, still cherish that piece of printed paper, even though they now resemble something totally foreign to what they were years ago. The feeling of going to a ground and buying the programme still does it for me. most collectors know that feeling when you arrive somewhere to find out that there is nothing printed, or worse, there is, but have all sold out!.....that affects me greatly. I still think that there is a need for programmes, maybe to go back to the days of just the basics (like Carlisle did last season) would get people back on board. Iwant to see a league table without all the stuff around such as percentages of win ratios, goal assists, passes made, passes missed miles covered.... i dont want all that. Something easy on the eye, something with the team you are playing on the cover in letters that you can see (you know what i mean). Will it ever happen, will clubs just give up and not bother. are they prepared to lose that link? Some have already made that decision, I hope that it proves to be the wrong one. Thank you Rob Holt

Excellent Rob - I couldn't agree more!!

[manchesterunitedman1]

Kickoff3pm wrote:

Over printing of cup finals is killing the market. Add that to the cost of modern programmes and the size with postage costs and collecting todays issues is very expensive. But I suppose the main problem with football programmes is the same for most aspects of the game. Thats the sure lack of heroes on the pitch and the fact that it's pointless building up a favourite player because he'll be playing for someone else next season. So why keep programmes full of players who have fucked you over ?

err scuse me but what has that got to do with anything?, i thought there were 10 other players on the pitch??. so when shearer moved to blackburn should the saints fans sling every programme for every game he palyed for them in the bin, and blackburn fans when he went to newcastle likewise?, i think your view is ultra, ultra cynical-how many players playing today have been one club men, how many giggs, john terry's are still out there?, well however few there are and have been over the last 30 years + in comparison to the ones who have come and then moved on i don't understand your point. If you are talking about loyalty or the lack of it you are ded right-but today what do you expect-the money given to them is crazy, the opportunities for no mark players be it foreign or otherwise is beyond belief-that waste of space who had one good season at Man City Ireland and who went to Villa-lasted an hour-went to Newcastle-is he still there? all on loan at 80k a week-cant play for toffee but he knows how to wrap a 100k car around a lamp post OR sell his car as he cdoesnt like the colour of BUY one and then have it sprayed some ridiculous shade so all fellow numptys like him can see the HIM coming 3 miles away. An insatiable beast has been created, money is spent like water on the players and by a lot of them. Many are not fit to hold the boots of a Bobby Charlton, Law, Dalgleish, Colin Bell, Bobby Moore, Greaves, yet the disparity has long since gone.
Shankly and Busby cannot rotate in their graves anymore than they do every day-they felt a hundred and twenty five quid was more than enuff for a Law or a Tommy Smith in their day-now a reserve squaddie gets 5k a week. I share your view as most of us do perhaps with the money around today, but when everyone was up in arms over our once illustrious chariman martin edwards ending up on the froint cover of a sunday paper for spending his brass on brass we all said we love the club, and the club will continue forever and the players and the managers and the directors and the oqwners will in time all fade away into distant memories and what is left is what you support-YOUR CLUB-full stop irrespective of whoever puts on the shirt, if a new guy comes in gets 25 goals gets you promoted or you win a league or a cup and then someone else pops up with more brass-thats how it goes in the food chain of players today. In my opinion the biggest offenders for the last 30 years are Real Madrid they watch and they wait and then make mischief to unsettle a player at a club and will grind away until they get their man or drop them and move to another target. They pursued Beckham, Van Nistleroy, Ronaldo and caused us as a club much disruption and as soon as those those boys had filled their needs they binned them-well 2 out of 3 so far, Van der Vaart is another, Wesley Sneijder was another, Benzema is another and he cannot get a game and would have blossomed elsewhere especially MU. Sunday Roast now-that has not and never will change now . terra

[Tynie Topics]

A thread I started a while back

http://www.footballprogrammece.....ght=future
_________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[Kickoff3pm]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

Kickoff3pm wrote: Over printing of cup finals is killing the market. Add that to the cost of modern programmes and the size with postage costs and collecting todays issues is very expensive. But I suppose the main problem with football programmes is the same for most aspects of the game. Thats the sure lack of heroes on the pitch and the fact that it's pointless building up a favourite player because he'll be playing for someone else next season. So why keep programmes full of players who have fucked you over ? err scuse me but what has that got to do with anything?, i thought there were 10 other players on the pitch??. so when shearer moved to blackburn should the saints fans sling every programme for every game he palyed for them in the bin, and blackburn fans when he went to newcastle likewise?, i think your view is ultra, ultra cynical-how many players playing today have been one club men, how many giggs, john terry's are still out there?, well however few there are and have been over the last 30 years + in comparison to the ones who have come and then moved on i don't understand your point. If you are talking about loyalty or the lack of it you are ded right-but today what do you expect-the money given to them is crazy, the opportunities for no mark players be it foreign or otherwise is beyond belief-that waste of space who had one good season at Man City Ireland and who went to Villa-lasted an hour-went to Newcastle-is he still there? all on loan at 80k a week-cant play for toffee but he knows how to wrap a 100k car around a lamp post OR sell his car as he cdoesnt like the colour of BUY one and then have it sprayed some ridiculous shade so all fellow numptys like him can see the HIM coming 3 miles away. An insatiable beast has been created, money is spent like water on the players and by a lot of them. Many are not fit to hold the boots of a Bobby Charlton, Law, Dalgleish, Colin Bell, Bobby Moore, Greaves, yet the disparity has long since gone. Shankly and Busby cannot rotate in their graves anymore than they do every day-they felt a hundred and twenty five quid was more than enuff for a Law or a Tommy Smith in their day-now a reserve squaddie gets 5k a week. I share your view as most of us do perhaps with the money around today, but when everyone was up in arms over our once illustrious chariman martin edwards ending up on the froint cover of a sunday paper for spending his brass on brass we all said we love the club, and the club will continue forever and the players and the managers and the directors and the oqwners will in time all fade away into distant memories and what is left is what you support-YOUR CLUB-full stop irrespective of whoever puts on the shirt, if a new guy comes in gets 25 goals gets you promoted or you win a league or a cup and then someone else pops up with more brass-thats how it goes in the food chain of players today. In my opinion the biggest offenders for the last 30 years are Real Madrid they watch and they wait and then make mischief to unsettle a player at a club and will grind away until they get their man or drop them and move to another target. They pursued Beckham, Van Nistleroy, Ronaldo and caused us as a club much disruption and as soon as those those boys had filled their needs they binned them-well 2 out of 3 so far, Van der Vaart is another, Wesley Sneijder was another, Benzema is another and he cannot get a game and would have blossomed elsewhere especially MU. Sunday Roast now-that has not and never will change now . terra

I didn't say everyone would dump their programmes but it's interesting that you have go so far back in history - sort of proves my point I think.

Cynical I agree, but based on over 40 years of watching the game and being in some way around supporters. I now trade in memorabilia but can remember my uncle making and selling scarves and rosettes outside midland grounds so it's sort of been in the family for well before I was born.

For programmes it depends on when that collecting bug takes hold. If dad or mom don't bother with a programme because of the price it's likely the kid or kids won't catch that bug. If it costs £2 to post a programme thats worth £1 how's that going to catch on ?

Used to be programmes were a way for fans to keep informed about the club and up and coming players. Now people who want that use the web I suspect.

So you see the are a lot of pressures on the football programme it's needs to find another unique selling point to survive another five years in my opinion.

[manchesterunitedman1]

Kickoff3pm wrote:

manchesterunitedman1 wrote: Kickoff3pm wrote: Over printing of cup finals is killing the market. Add that to the cost of modern programmes and the size with postage costs and collecting todays issues is very expensive. But I suppose the main problem with football programmes is the same for most aspects of the game. Thats the sure lack of heroes on the pitch and the fact that it's pointless building up a favourite player because he'll be playing for someone else next season. So why keep programmes full of players who have fucked you over ? err scuse me but what has that got to do with anything?, i thought there were 10 other players on the pitch??. so when shearer moved to blackburn should the saints fans sling every programme for every game he palyed for them in the bin, and blackburn fans when he went to newcastle likewise?, i think your view is ultra, ultra cynical-how many players playing today have been one club men, how many giggs, john terry's are still out there?, well however few there are and have been over the last 30 years + in comparison to the ones who have come and then moved on i don't understand your point. If you are talking about loyalty or the lack of it you are ded right-but today what do you expect-the money given to them is crazy, the opportunities for no mark players be it foreign or otherwise is beyond belief-that waste of space who had one good season at Man City Ireland and who went to Villa-lasted an hour-went to Newcastle-is he still there? all on loan at 80k a week-cant play for toffee but he knows how to wrap a 100k car around a lamp post OR sell his car as he cdoesnt like the colour of BUY one and then have it sprayed some ridiculous shade so all fellow numptys like him can see the HIM coming 3 miles away. An insatiable beast has been created, money is spent like water on the players and by a lot of them. Many are not fit to hold the boots of a Bobby Charlton, Law, Dalgleish, Colin Bell, Bobby Moore, Greaves, yet the disparity has long since gone. Shankly and Busby cannot rotate in their graves anymore than they do every day-they felt a hundred and twenty five quid was more than enuff for a Law or a Tommy Smith in their day-now a reserve squaddie gets 5k a week. I share your view as most of us do perhaps with the money around today, but when everyone was up in arms over our once illustrious chariman martin edwards ending up on the froint cover of a sunday paper for spending his brass on brass we all said we love the club, and the club will continue forever and the players and the managers and the directors and the oqwners will in time all fade away into distant memories and what is left is what you support-YOUR CLUB-full stop irrespective of whoever puts on the shirt, if a new guy comes in gets 25 goals gets you promoted or you win a league or a cup and then someone else pops up with more brass-thats how it goes in the food chain of players today. In my opinion the biggest offenders for the last 30 years are Real Madrid they watch and they wait and then make mischief to unsettle a player at a club and will grind away until they get their man or drop them and move to another target. They pursued Beckham, Van Nistleroy, Ronaldo and caused us as a club much disruption and as soon as those those boys had filled their needs they binned them-well 2 out of 3 so far, Van der Vaart is another, Wesley Sneijder was another, Benzema is another and he cannot get a game and would have blossomed elsewhere especially MU. Sunday Roast now-that has not and never will change now . terra I didn't say everyone would dump their programmes but it's interesting that you have go so far back in history - sort of proves my point I think. Cynical I agree, but based on over 40 years of watching the game and being in some way around supporters. I now trade in memorabilia but can remember my uncle making and selling scarves and rosettes outside midland grounds so it's sort of been in the family for well before I was born. For programmes it depends on when that collecting bug takes hold. If dad or mom don't bother with a programme because of the price it's likely the kid or kids won't catch that bug. If it costs £2 to post a programme thats worth £1 how's that going to catch on ? Used to be programmes were a way for fans to keep informed about the club and up and coming players. Now people who want that use the web I suspect. So you see the are a lot of pressures on the football programme it's needs to find another unique selling point to survive another five years in my opinion.

When the likes of Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City, Chelsea and all the other clubs inthe Premiership and Football League do what those Scottish club's have now done-THAT will be the end for sure, but there will always be sucessful clubs whose fans will always want to buy the programme-Tell me No Spanish or Itlaian club in La Liga or Seri A or ANYWHERE in thsose countires produces a programme for donkeys years, yet they sell more sports papers in a month during the season that the top four Premiership clubs sell programmes probably in 6 months or maybe longer??, but as we do not subscribe to 3-4 daily sports mags a week that is why our programme may dissipate a little but will never disappear. If Carlisle United was pulling in 15-20,000 a game would they be reducing ght size and the cost of their match programme-would they hellas like!, it would be glossier and larger and dearer for sure-but then again by your own admission you are a cynic-I had an Uncle who spent all night making rosettes out of the fag packets people threw away at Victoria Station in Manchester in the 1950'/1960's then sold them back to the mugs with a bit of ribbon around them at the week ends! Happy Days. I see where you are coming from but cannot subscribe to your view. 40 or 30 years ago a programme was 6 old pence in the 1960's and then one shilling in the 1970's, today at a big club it is £3 in the 1970's the average mans wage may have been £15-20- i was 20 in 1970 and got £8 quid a week- move on 40 years everything is relative EXCEPT players wages!!. I accept collectors have to start at a young age for sure, but once anyone is working these days then going to the match and getting programme is part and parcel, i cannot speak for other clubs, but i see fans wandering round the ground outside Old Trafford clutching half a dozen and three quid a go regularly-so i do not see how you think your point is made en masse programme wise but it is player wise with the money but we all knew that anyway. Anyway there will always be have and have nots the Scottish sides that have taken this view and action are wrong, they send a message out that reeks of total abject failure and they have both on and off the field these past 100 years, how else do they think the handfull of faithfull followers can kep in touch with their continued lack of sucess? clubs like this have died from the inside a long time ago and not accepting whatever commercial avenue it may bring[or brought them] it would appear that they aint got long for this world, which will be a shame-but there will be brighter and more hard working and perhaps healthier clubs wishing to take their place if given the opportunity, as they say life moves on.

[matt blue]

Personally unless league clubs go part time I can never see league clubs not producing programmes, even when clubs have gone close to closing down they have always produced a programme.

I remember in the late 80s when cardiff city couldn't afford to produce a full sized programme however despite getting crowds of less then 2000 they still did a 4 or 8 page effort.

The programmes of today need to be made smaller - they are just too big, but aslong as there are punters there ready with there £5 and £10 notes they will continue to make them the same size

Matt Charles

[dj0505]

Which Scottish clubs are not issuing ?

If they cant make money from the advertising and match day sales they are doing something wrong !!

[Tynie Topics]

dj0505 wrote:

Which Scottish clubs are not issuing ? If they cant make money from the advertising and match day sales they are doing something wrong !!

Arbroath and Stirling Albion.
_________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[dj0505]

Tynie Topics wrote:

dj0505 wrote: Which Scottish clubs are not issuing ? If they cant make money from the advertising and match day sales they are doing something wrong !! Arbroath and Stirling Albion.

Backward step by both, the advertising revenue alone should have been enough to cover the costs !!

The Supporters themselves should do the progs
_________________
Please check out my website www.duncanjardine.co.uk

[Tynie Topics]

dj0505 wrote:

The Supporters themselves should do the progs

Indeed, however Stirling Albion are owned by the supporters.....
_________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[manchesterunitedman1]

Tynie Topics wrote:

dj0505 wrote: The Supporters themselves should do the progs Indeed, however Stirling Albion are owned by the supporters.....

maybe it is just A supporter?

[Wullie]

Tynie Topics wrote:

dj0505 wrote: Which Scottish clubs are not issuing ? If they cant make money from the advertising and match day sales they are doing something wrong !! Arbroath and Stirling Albion.

I am amazed supporters of these clubs can't produce a small programme.

[Kickoff3pm]

Wullie wrote:

Tynie Topics wrote: dj0505 wrote: Which Scottish clubs are not issuing ? If they cant make money from the advertising and match day sales they are doing something wrong !! Arbroath and Stirling Albion. I am amazed supporters of these clubs can't produce a small programme.

Fanzines ? From what I've seen at the Albion and Villa it's a thankless task producing these sort of things. I've seen those that have not intention of buying still wanting to get their pound of flesh by slagging off the people who produce them.

I would love to be able to buy a simple paper issue with black and white images with about 10-30 pages is enough. But the price would need to be no more the £1.00 I think.

[sharrowblade]

Could it be that the modern day football programme is simply a victim of the modern game, to the majority of supporters the programme is just another expense on top of what is already an over priced form of entertainment.


A programme each for my two lads at every home game would be just shy of their season ticket prices.

f I asked my lads what they'd prefer, Hot dog and a bottle of pop or a programme, I know what the answers going to be!.......and programmes don't taste as good.

Likewise, if given the choice, would the typical supporter (male 20-50 years old) prefer a free programme or a free pint?
One nil to the breweries I think.

Finally, Lets be honest How many people still read the modern programme?
_________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sharrowblade/sets
A Sheffield United Programme guide

[dj0505]

You are right, fewer fans are buying programmes, but still many are, and I cant see how any club can fail to make a profit from them ? modern printing has reduced production costs dramatically, and the revenue from advertising far outstrips the costs of printing.
_________________
Please check out my website www.duncanjardine.co.uk