Non collector - Just found a 1940 cup final

[Wullie]

The guy only asked how to store the items and if he should sell or keep them. I'm sure he is intelligent enough not to get screwed. The trouble is with such finds, only human nature, is people get carried away and start planning a new car and an exotic holiday . He is doing the right thing asking forum members for a rough valuation. No need for another slagging off match. I'm very interested to hear what else he has. If he found a collection of pre war Sunderland programmes my advice would still be the same. Seek out a top sports auctioneer and get rid of the lot.
My other bit of advice, is not to call a 1940 programme mint. It won't be if it's an original. Never class a programme as mint. It'll only raise suspicion of a reprint.
And NEVER have a programme/photo restored . This could destroy the value of the item overnight . You could turn a £500 item into a £100 item, and it'll cost you money to have it done. Don't get me wrong. I'm having programmes restored at the moment , and very happy to do so as they are for my collection. But it could be a disaster for a seller.

[treble99]

very good information Wullie

It's just completely wrong

The prices for the quality items are increasing to significant new levels
To suggest there is no new generation coming through and therefore to suggest the prices won't go up is rubbish

How many pre war Blackburns have you ever seen?
How much Blackburn Olympic have you seen?
Not only desirable to Blackburn fans but if the opposition is collectable then bingo
There ain't no prices going own

Just to blindly send him off to "an auction house" is not good information
There is an array of auction houses and if you follow them there are horses for courses
Some get significantly better attended than others and some have a different sort of collector
Get it wrong and you don't get a fraction of the true value
Example
In a small auction house in Manchester about a year ago somebody discovered a scrap book from a family member
The auction house didn't have a clue so they described it as a scrap book about Jack Mew the United goalkeeper.Value £60-80
It was Jack Mews own scrap book and covered the period through the first world war up to 1923
It had
6 complete Manchester United first world war programmes-Value about £10,000
50+ "You have been selected to play for Manchester United postcards"-Value about £3000
a complete unused ticket for a Manchester United v Southport game in the heart of the first world war-Value £2000+
a fully autographed sheet from his testimonial game £1000
a menu from a 1920's charity game-value £2000
Several original professional Manchester United photos from just after the first world war(calm down Pete)-Value £1000
An unused dressing room pass from Goodison in the heart of WW1
etc etc etc

Possibly a new car and a holiday and a kitchen and £10k left
Well thanks quite a lot to the wrong auction house which is mostly frequented by two bob fish and chip shop merchants and bedroom bandits who usually do deals around a "box of 350 Manchester United or Manchester City home programmes from the 1980's and 1990's" for a fiver
Frighteningly they usually do attend with their wives.Just in case they need to go to £8

So i do accept that you have given your opinion in good faith but it is not good enough
To suggest he is clever enough not to get ripped off is wrong
He might be clever.I wouldn't suggest he isn't
But i would suggest he almost certainly knows nothing about the potential,the valuation and the way of disposing of these items for the best price

That is why i frequent this forum
There are too many vultures on here just waiting to cough cough "help out"

[Wullie]

Good advice on the auctions treble. As I said ( I think ) quality items will always be sought after. I'm thinking if the guy holds on to them or takes the money and runs. Really he is asking are they are good investment that will go up and up ?
And that is an interesting question. There is a difference of opinion on this one. And we can all give examples of one way or another. As a Manchester Untied collector your collection will always be highly valued.
I think of it as this way. If you inherited a rare collection of first edition books , and you had no interest in them at all. Would you hang on to them as a investment for your children , having the hassle of keeping them in good condition, the worry of having them stolen , probably having to insure them etc. or Sell them to a collector who'll love them and have the money safety in the bank / trust fund ? I think the question grameka2 is asking is, should invest ( keep not adding) in something I know nothing about. It is generally agreed to never invest in something you don't understand. That is why personally I would sell them. Just find the right place . Others on here can advice on that.

[Wullie]

As for getting ripped of by forum members. I would think if someone sent me a pm and offered £100 for a programme, then I would be thinking , hold on , this is worth much more. On the other hand, I have made an over the top offer for a programme and the seller refused. Then it didn't sell at auction. And really, I don't see any difference from making an offer on the forum to making an offer on eBay for a seller to close the sale early. And who hasn't done that before ? We can only advice people if we think they may get ripped off. Surely a pm to the person suggesting they be careful will help.
In my opinion , they'll be a few chancers and some decent honest people here who'll try to make offers. Buyer beware at all times , but don't assume every offer is a piss take. It could be actually better than auction after fees etc.

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

Over and above all that about auctions etc, if the OP grameka has found programmes and photos with a relative in then he's very justified in looking into preservation, framing, displaying, and a legacy for his kids etc. I know I would if I found a relative with that sort of connection. In fact I would be beside myself with excitement!

The best I can do is an aunt's uncle played cricket with Ranjitsinji for Sussex in the 1890's & early 1900's. I have one photo of him, even though he's not directly related to me at all, but that's in memory of my aunt who knew him as a child.

[Karb]

So what happened to the Jack Mew lot, as the story just seems to tail off?

[treble99]

Wullie wrote:

As for getting ripped of by forum members. I would think if someone sent me a pm and offered £100 for a programme, then I would be thinking , hold on , this is worth much more. On the other hand, I have made an over the top offer for a programme and the seller refused. Then it didn't sell at auction. And really, I don't see any difference from making an offer on the forum to making an offer on eBay for a seller to close the sale early. And who hasn't done that before ? We can only advice people if we think they may get ripped off. Surely a pm to the person suggesting they be careful will help. In my opinion , they'll be a few chancers and some decent honest people here who'll try to make offers. Buyer beware at all times , but don't assume every offer is a piss take. It could be actually better than auction after fees etc.

That's totally confusing
Did anybody else think so?

When the OP came on he was asking several questions even if he was not clear
He had found some items and was asking about preservation and indirectly about valuation
If somebody offered £100 why would he think anything either good or bad about the offer
He just doesn't know

There will indeed be a few chances on here and how will the OP know who they are
The nice guys posted openly and honestly
I bet he got a few pm's off the record offering to help him out

I never even thought about emailing people on ebay in the early days but when a few auctions vanished quickly i emailed a few to find out they had accepted a tidy sum of say £150 for something they had found in a drawer
When i explained it was nearer say a grand they would get agitated bur there was nothing more that could be done
So buyer beware or seller beware
Why can't people be honest with unsuspecting people
This forum puts itself up as a medium to help people but in reality it is more a duck shoot looking for ducks

[Wullie]

Pete’s Picture Palace wrote:

Over and above all that about auctions etc, if the OP grameka has found programmes and photos with a relative in then he's very justified in looking into preservation, framing, displaying, and a legacy for his kids etc. I know I would if I found a relative with that sort of connection. In fact I would be beside myself with excitement! The best I can do is an aunt's uncle played cricket with Ranjitsinji for Sussex in the 1890's & early 1900's. I have one photo of him, even though he's not directly related to me at all, but that's in memory of my aunt who knew him as a child.

What normally happens Pete is the kids grow up with this stuff and can't wait to flog at the first opportunity . If you have two kids or more it's the only fair way . I say flog it, and enjoy the money. You never know, if he keeps it he may (heaven forbid ) get the bug

[treble99]

Well we have almost squared the circle and we are more or less back at where we started

You would sell.Fair enough.So would others
Some would keep it
Different people.Different choices

The Op asked was it genuine and how do you preserve it/them

The innocent and correct advice given was that it was genuine
I directed him to Secol or the National Football Museum as possible starting points

Cossie gave some up to date valuations and prices achieved

Then it gets arsey with the potential o somebody nicking it
That would not be right and should not be allowed by this forums members under the header "seller beware"

[Wullie]

Yes lets wait and see what else he comes up with . Unless we have scared the poor bloke off.

[grameka2]

Quick update from me...

The programme will be sold, it holds little sentimental value and I'll kick myself in my grave if I save it for down the family line only to drop in price with the kids of the future collecting holographic autographs instead.

The photo is under some serious family tree investigation right now and I won't decide what happens to it untill I know everything there is to know about it. If it turns out to be a relative then there is no way it will be sold (by myself at this time at least). I'll look into having some kind of protective display made and it will probably be my prized possession - I never really saw our family as being the 'heirloom' type.

I've emailed the Football Museum, am in contact with Blackburn museum and the local paper to try and get hold of a Blackburn Olympic historian. I've obviously emailed a list of sports auction houses for valuations too...

This first reply hasn't filled me with much confidence though

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Hello #####,

Thank you for your email.

It is indeed a rare photograph, commercially it is such a pity about the damage to the card. Nevertheless it is still an important image with Rovers becoming the first northern professional team to break the stranglehold on southern amateur clubs domination of the early years of the F.A. Cup. I believe a sensible price is £400-600.

The War Cup Final programme usually makes in the region of £180-220.
Hope that helps.
Best Regards
Graham Budd

-----------------------------------

Hi Graham and thanks very much for the reply,

In your email you refer to the team as 'Rovers' but this is the long extinct second club of the town Blackburn Olympic. Pease could you confirm this is a typo and the valuation remains £400-600.

Cheers, #####


---------------------------------------

Hello #####,

I do apologise I should have picked up on than that.

Although Olympic memorabilia is rarer because of the short duration of the club what Rovers achieved that year was significant. I will have to revise my estimate to £250-350.

Apologies for the confusion.

Graham

-------------------------------------------------

1881/82 Old Etonians 1-0 Blackburn Rovers (Rovers first Northern working class team to reach final but are defeated)
1882/83 Old Etonians 1-2 Blackburn Olympic (Olympic first Northern working class team to win Cup)
1883/84 Queens Park 1-2 Blackburn Rovers (Rovers win Cup for the first time)

The achievment you mention is still Olympics.


-------------------------------------------

Your knowledge of the local history is superior to me. £400-600 for the cup winning team.

-------------------------------------------

History of the FA Cup, from Wikipedia - nothing local about it.

Cheers Graham, have a good day.[/i]

[Tynie Topics]

It's great to read threads like this with people finding items that have been stashed in the loft for years.

The picture is a cracker, I do a bit of historical reserach myself on football in my local area and it is great when something like this is discovered.

Let us know what else you find, and good luck with whatever you decide to do with the items. The auction houses you have contacted will provide solid advice as to valuations. Graham Budd is probably the "industry leader".
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[martino]

Estimates are one thing but what counts is what it realises on the day. If two or more bidders want it then the price should exceed the estimate.
Most of us on this site have seen items go for way in excess of the estimate and also vice versa.

If you go to auction put a fixed reserve on it so if it does not reach that figure then it will not be sold. However check that the auction house you choose does not charge a fee for unsold items / storage etc.

[grameka2]

Tynie Topics wrote:

It's great to read threads like this with people finding items that have been stashed in the loft for years. The picture is a cracker, I do a bit of historical reserach myself on football in my local area and it is great when something like this is discovered. Let us know what else you find, and good luck with whatever you decide to do with the items. The auction houses you have contacted will provide solid advice as to valuations. Graham Budd is probably the "industry leader".

Cheers, thanks. All sorts of priceless family stuff turning up - worthless to others. I'm heading back today for the programmes. I've been informed that there could be some very old cricket stuff too - all very exciting.

Sorry but if that guy is the industry leader I won't be turning to an auction house for sales - did you read the email exchange? Clearly didn't have a clue.

[Tynie Topics]

grameka2 wrote:

Sorry but if that guy is the industry leader I won't be turning to an auction house for sales - did you read the email exchange? Clearly didn't have a clue.

LOL, maybe he was having a bad day!

Graham Budd auctions are held twice a year at Sothebys and they are generally considered to be the leader, with high quality items offered and prices realised normally reflecting that. Cricket, golf and horse racing are also fields they cover well.

Sportingold are another popular auction, held more regularly and specialising a little more in football/programmes although they do dabble in other sports.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[kenners46]

The only thing I ever find in my loft is spiders.

[martino]

grameka2 wrote:

Tynie Topics wrote: It's great to read threads like this with people finding items that have been stashed in the loft for years. The picture is a cracker, I do a bit of historical reserach myself on football in my local area and it is great when something like this is discovered. Let us know what else you find, and good luck with whatever you decide to do with the items. The auction houses you have contacted will provide solid advice as to valuations. Graham Budd is probably the "industry leader". Cheers, thanks. All sorts of priceless family stuff turning up - worthless to others. I'm heading back today for the programmes. I've been informed that there could be some very old cricket stuff too - all very exciting. Sorry but if that guy is the industry leader I won't be turning to an auction house for sales - did you read the email exchange? Clearly didn't have a clue.

Probably best to arrange a meeting with the Auction House you choose to go with. Most will be happy to visit you to go through everything.

Actually seeing the items does help although they may have to research some of the rarer items - even they do not know everything.

Robert Adcock of Sporting Memorys may be worth considering.

[Posh1959]

away on holiday at the moment so only intermittent internet, just a comment on a few posts i have read. Treble said how many Blackburn pre war have you seen---answer loads my house is full of them, seriously best advice i can give is send them to auction, there you will have all the collectors in the world able to view what you have, make the most of what you have as once they are gone they are gone.