Are programmes still worth investing in?

[Stevesmitt]

I've had a nice win on a football accumulator and would like to buy something that will not lose value that I can pass on to my son in 20 years time. I've got about £3500 to spend. I would ideally like to get a full set of world cup final programmes and full set (or as many as possible) fa cup final. Not sure if funds will get them all but I can add to it over the years.
What I want to know is wil the value increase much over the next 20 years or so or would I be better putting the cash in a bank account for him?

[hibernian]

FA cup finals are collectable and now seems to be a good time to start as prices appear to have dropped on ebay.
Dealers have not followed the trend so would advise to avoid them.
Absolutely no idea what prices will be like in 20 years but I would think you would never lose out on pre 70 finals.

[Auchinleckian]

Collecting anything mainstream always follows a cyclical trend in prices, look at how the art world crashed when the recession his the Far East in the late 1990's. If you're looking for a full set of FA Cup finals forget going any further back than the 1930's with that kind of budget.
Best buy at the moment seems to be the big sporting auction houses where FA Cup Finals can be had relatively cheaply nowadays. With some canny buying you can probably get a full set back to WW2 for less than £1k, based on 1940's Finals @ £400 - £500; 1950's @ £200 - £250; 1960's @ £70-£80; 1970's @ £50-£60 including the 1970 replay; 1980's £30-£40; 1990's £150-£200; 2000 plus £50-£60.
If you're looking to go back further you can still get some of the later 1930's Finals for £200-£300 in good condition. You may even wish to consider buying sub standard ones at a much lesser rate and then spending a bit to have them restored. If you're considering that kind of route speak to a restorer beforehand (Google Eammon Fitzmaurice)
Best of luck, it's very much a buyer's market out there at the moment, but there's still people with money wanting to buy the right items.

[Wullie]

I think it odd someone wants to collect programmes only as an investment. And you are not the only one , i know of a few in the last few years ( a real pain in the arse one turned out to be). My advice, buy premium bonds or put your money in a long term account. I really can't think of a more stupid idea than " investing" in something that you know nothing about. I may sound blunt, but unless you enjoy the hobby forget it....

[Tynie Topics]

Wullie wrote:

I think it odd someone wants to collect programmes only as an investment. And you are not the only one , i know of a few in the last few years ( a real pain in the arse one turned out to be). My advice, buy premium bonds or put your money in a long term account. I really can't think of a more stupid idea than " investing" in something that you know nothing about. I may sound blunt, but unless you enjoy the hobby forget it....

Disagree Wullie, the smart money these days is in the "alternative investment market", and football programmes is very much part of that. Buying wisely can see your investment in the right sort of programmes, coins, stamps, even fine wines give you better returns than shares or brick/mortar.

Our poster here is doing the right thing, asking advice before committing his investment, and I doubt premium bonds provide the same enjoyment (unless you win!).
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[Wullie]

Well, i think that collecting for investment only without the buzz or love of a hobby is pretty daft idea. It's like me saying, ok i got a couple of grand, i'm going to buy into something i know nothing about, say ??? cigarette cards. So i buy £3000 worth , put them in the cupboard, Boring. Sorry. I have to be honest, with the experience i have had. People who collect because they think it is easy money can be a bloody nightmare.

[Tynie Topics]

Wullie wrote:

Well, i think that collecting for investment only without the buzz or love of a hobby is pretty daft idea. It's like me saying, ok i got a couple of grand, i'm going to buy into something i know nothing about, say ??? cigarette cards. So i buy £3000 worth , put them in the cupboard, Boring. Sorry. I have to be honest, with the experiance i have had. People who collect because they think it is easy money can be a bloody nightmare.

Is it really anymore daft that buying shares in a portfolio of companies that you have no connection with?

The point is, if you have £3,500 to invest and you're taking the right sort of advice, then investing it in programmes (or stamps or coins or paintings or something material) it should be more rewarding than a piece of paper saying you have 500,000 shares in J.Bloggs and Co, or a premium bond. That's why this sort of investment market exists.

As it is, if you're a football fan and looking to invest some cash, I'd have thought programmes would be an obvious option to explore if done wisely.

You might have had bad experiences with people looking to invest, but that's really irrelevant to the original post and the advice this person is looking for.
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[Wullie]

He could be a closet anorak. Just waitng for us to say " come and join us, it's ok " and then he'll be hooked. Offers lists, Programme Monthly, Sunday fairs, ebay, missing postponed games, teamsheets, rusty staples, no cupboard space. I tell you my friend, don't even think about it

[Tynie Topics]

Wullie wrote:

He could be a closet anorak. Just waitng for us to say " come and join us, it's ok " and then he'll be hooked. Offers lists, Programme Monthly, Sunday fairs, ebay, missing postponed games, teamsheets, rusty staples, no cupboard space. I tell you my friend, don't even think about it

Maybe he'd be interested in pre-war Sunderland, he's got the money, you've not, you've spent it all
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[Wullie]

If i wanted to to invest £3500 in programmes, put them away and forget about them for 20 years, i would buy 10/12 Pre War Manchester United homes OR
1920 or 1921 and the 1924 FA Cup Final rather than 1923. I would forget anything post war, and avoid London Club homes.

[matt blue]

I would certainly invest....rare away internationals involving the home nations would be the way id invest £3500....a lot of people are selling some very nice items at the moment and theres not a huge amount of ££ going around so plenty of bargains to be had on ebay and in auctions.

[Dorking]

Wullie wrote:

If i wanted to to invest £3500 in programmes, put them away and forget about them for 20 years, i would buy 10/12 Pre War Manchester United homes OR 1920 or 1921 and the 1924 FA Cup Final rather than 1923. I would forget anything post war, and avoid London Club homes.

^This.
And quality (condition) has to be important too. Don't just buy the first example you can find in order to get a particular programme, but hold out until you come across really good condition examples.

And in auction situations, don't be suckered in by the excitement of the chase and pay more than it's realistically worth.

[treble99]

This is actually a very interesting thread which has made me really think.
It takes in all that the hobby is about.
I still collect current season Manchester United programmes even though i can't sell them now at 50p each and probably never will be able to sell them at anything other than a loss.
So why do i collect them?
It is because i am a collector.Plain and simple.
At the other end of my collection i have some programmes that are worth a significant amount of money.
These are a combination of programmes that i have acquired cheaply and some that i have paid over the going price for but that i had to have for one reason or another that i will probably never get my money back for.
I still don't know why i paid so much.
Have you ever come out of an auction room or off ebay when you suddenly realise everybody is happy.
By that i mean the buyer is happy as he has the item.The underbidder is happy he didn't win having gone way over where he wanted to be.
The seller is happy having got more than he expected and the auctioneer is happy having got a very good commission.
What a great hobby.
Joking aside our investor is on the right lines but in the wrong place by asking here.
I personally believe that quality items are better placed to make a long term profit.I don't think that the 99p crud will ever increase in value.
But where will our investor find the quality items at the right price?Not here for sure.
Despite what a lot of the members here say they are not here to help anybody financially.Probably statistically or with factual information about whether or not a programme exists.
Nobody here is going to say to our investor that they have programmes that are worth £5000 and that he can have them for £3000.
Equally if he went into an art gallery and said he had £3000 to spend then whatever they sell him won't be worth £3000 as he hands his cash over.
Same with stocks and shares.They go down as well as up.
If he wanted a bit of fun then he might spend 12 months learning the prices of say pre war cup finals and seeing if he can nick one or two but i stress to the starter of the post that nobody here will give you an immediate profit.Nor being bluntly honest would you expect them to.
these boys are professionals.Either professional collectors,professional dealers or just professional bedroom bandits trying to make a couple of quid here and there with no costs.
if you had started this post just by saying you had £3000 to spend then it would have lit up with "pm sent" and you would have been that confused and you could have ended up spending £3000 on a pile of crap that you would never sell.
My advise is put it in the bank and then monitor ebay and auction houses for a year or so and look at quality things that interest you ie pre war of your team or pre war cup finals or old internationals etc
then when you feel comfortable have a go

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[Kickoff3pm]

It's very different to shares in companies I can tell you that. Although in the past I've made some good money there I gave up about two years ago. Currently still hold a few and one which my average price is 12p is currently on offer anywhere at 0.8 of a penny.

Now consider that to say a 1996 FA cup final, what was the cover price £3 ? well at one point they were selling for near £100 and even though you could prob pick one up for £30 now still ten time the cover.

Even if no one wanted to give you the original £3 you would still have something physical in the programme to hold on to and enjoy for ever and pass on for others to enjoy.

Never the less you should be careful in what you buy. If buying for others then I think it best to buy small items rather the a large bulk of programmes that have to be stored and looked after. Tickets are ideal, for a start the numbers issued are limited not reprint after the even or FA cup final steward badges. For gods sake don't buy anything signed.

I would take a trip out to Preston and look at the football museum. Or your local team's ground if they have a collection. See what they have bought even ask if they have duplicates (no copies) they might want to sell you.

[Stevesmitt]

Thanks a lot for all your advise. Your right I don't have a clue about the programme market and only have very little interest, I don't even buy a programme at Oldham on a sat. I do have a few old programmes already from my first game, first away game, first visit to wembley and oldhams two visits to wembley, don't think any are worth anything but I wouldn't sell them anyway. I am starting to get a little interested in old football memorabilia and programmes but only ones that I can relate to like cup finals, big England and Oldham games (not that Oldham have many big games). Somebody mention pre war man utd home games, I would have no interest in them at all even if they would make me decent profit over the years. I don't want to become a collector but I would like small collection that would mean something to me and I'm not looking to do it just for a profit, with £3500 I'm never going to get property or anything and instead of leaving it in a bank I'd like to do something different with it as long as the investment grows with the rate of inflation. Hopefully my son will enjoy them and maybe keep them but it would just be nice to give him something different instead of a load of cash that would just get blown down the boozer.

[wdy11]

Interesting thread I've enjoyed reading. I will speak for myself and give my own opinions. Investing purely for financial gain is risky as with any market. If the market collapses then you will be left with negative equity. Just look at the way our country is heading. Property used to be a guaranteed good investment. But in the recession it's risky.

Lots of collectors buy as an investment. But more so buy because collecting is a hobby and so if things do depreciate in value the enjoyment we get out of finding that missing gap in our collection and paying well over the market value (something I'm very guilty of doing) is a risk we are willing to take.

I collect all the current season stuff paying cover prices, and collecting teamsheets etc at upto £10 a pop sometimes when you can pick them up for £1 each 3 or four years later!! But I want to complete seasons without getting behind so it happens.

With that all said, Sports Memorabilia is a very healthy market at the moment with more and more collectors joining the hobby can only make it better. Certain programme prices will rollercoaster up and down depending on how many are available at one time. I've seen rarer programmes sell for £500 then 2 or 3 come onto the market hoping to make that and don't make half!!

[Andrew BSFC]

If somebody is looking at football programmes for a long term investment then I believe they need to have a sound knowledge of the hobby/programme market. Quality items will always sell but how does somebody new to the hobby differentiate between a quality programme likely to increase in value and one that could prove hard to get their money back on in the future?

As programme collectors we all have different collecting interests and a passion for football programmes. We become more knowledgeable as our collections grow and are able to better determine where best to buy from and the likely cost to us.

Most forum members will have their own thoughts on which type of programmes are worth collecting/investing in for the future. As with any personal views any advice given could send out mixed messages for somebody with little knowledge of programmes.

I believe that anybody looking to come into football programmes purely from an investment point should take time getting a feel for the hobby by studying E Bay, dealers websites/catalogues and contacting auction houses dealing in football collectables to establish price trends etc. By doing this over a period of time they will acquire a better understanding of what is likely to be a good investment and can then make up their own minds where best to put their money.

[Wullie]

I mention Manchester United because thay are the biggest club in UK and will be the biggest in 20 years from now ( Bastards ) therefore as an investment you'll more than likely to get a better return.
The trouble with programmes as an investment, is getting the right buyers at the right time in the right place.
I collect gold sovereigns, and i can tell you within £10 what a coin will go for. With programmes it is impossible. In fact it is completely insane. How can a Reading v Sunderland 1973 cup game be worth £55 one week £20 the next ? 1950 Sunderland v Galatasaray £150 , then £80 then £35 in one year ? Sometimes it's the other way. A programme i watched went 100 percent up in price when another turned up three days later.
A very interesting thread, but i still stick with my original judgement.

[cardiff55]

I was interviewed on this subject in an Investment magazine about a year ago. (What Invester or Investor's Chronicle, can't remember). It was generally about investing in Football or Sporting Memorabilia, but as my expertise (such as it is!) was mainly to comment on the programme market.

Having said that, even since then I've seen a downturn in prices by some considerable amounts too. See above for Cup Final prices. It used to be that anything post 60 was not really worth buying, an that applied even 20/30 years ago, even more so now. Probably anything post 55 is not worth it. I'd agree with comments above that you need to have an interest in the subject eg a specific club and have an interest in collecting football programmes as a hobby. From that you can specialise.

However, just like the stock market prices can fall. Inflation is at about 4.5% at the moment and anyone who went in to this purely for investment 2/3 years ago would now see a loss. My team is Cardiff and items from late 40s I was paying £20-£30 for a couple of years ago. Recently I picked up 2 from 49/50 for £6 each. So I'd be vary cautious about just speculating on this hobby for investment purposed only. Like anything you really need to know your market before investing, otherwise how do you know hat price to pay in the 1st place? KNow the market, scour the web and pick up what you consider to be good bargains , that way you should make a profit, just like dealers do! Avoid auction houses, most of the sales go to dealers I think, who then sell them on at even higher prices.

If you know a club and it's prices for progs you should know what to buy and at what price, and know when to sell too. Cup Finals are probably a good bet as they are always collectable and pre -war and immediate post war seem lowly priced at the moment. But who's to say prices will go up anyway!!

[Wullie]

I can only speak about my club, but what i have noticed over the last year is that good quality programmes are just not turning up. It's as if sellers know they are not going to get what they would have hoped to have got in the past and are holding on to programmes. I can't remember the last time i saw a pre war or war time home for sale. And if good stuff does turn up, it normally has a high buy it now price or high start price.
If you looked at auctions only, you don't see many programmes go for over £100 nowadays.
It is an excellent time to buy i agree, if only some good stuff would turn up AND had a low starting price.