Whistling Dixie Up ur Orifice!

[manchesterunitedman1]

Late last night a listing appeared on ebay, offering the Referees whistle from the 1909 Cup Final in a wooden box.

The Whistle was inscribed with the Refs name and the event, it started at £39 or BIN at £540.

This is the eBay item number:154189845311as i am not smart enough to paste and copy the actual page, but i am smart enough to think that it is not what it seems to be so after i wrote to the seller and asked where he obtained it and is there any provenance, he replied at 7am today it was "bought from my local antique fair" which only made me think it was a load of tosh BUT you have to give everyone a chance and further investigation was needed.

The thought of it being an original item had me knees knocking, £540 what a snip, buy it now the tosser in me said buy it now!, however common sense that sometimes i can show said, if its meant to be its meant to be yours if not ce la vie but i will exhaust every avenue for sure.

The Whistle is an Acme of course and having already 3 originals then i knew the only course was to call Acme in Birmingham and speak to their expert Simon Topman who can tell you the ins and outs within 5 seconds.

I sent him the images that i took off the page, my first thoughts were the font was too modern and i thought the Whistles were all Brass. What Simon confirmed to me was it is a fake as far as the 1909 Final goes, wrong top, wrong ring fitting, wrong font{!} also all of their markings are stamped not engraved, so what is it and the answer is it is a Trench Whistle from the 1914-18 Great War!

He went on to explain that it could well be Brass underneath and that Acme ran out of Brass raw materials during the Great War so the Government instructed Cadbury at Bourneville to deliver to Acme in Birmingham 1000's of their sweet tins so they could use them to continue to produce. "Over the top" was preceded by the Trench Whistle and how many tens of 1000's were lost in the mud when they came out of the trenches along with their owners!

I wrote to the seller who states he is based in Forfar and had no reply as yet and the auction is still on.........

£39 is an odd number to start with?, maybe that guaranteed his money back?
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[Supermono13]

In case anyone is interested:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/English-football-1909-FA-Cup-Final-Referee-whistle-Bristol-v-Manchester-united/154189845311?hash=item23e66e533f:g:1O8AAOSwETVfrE2V

[Dorking]

Just the fact it says FA Cup Final on it screams fraud to me.

In that era, it would have been known as the English Cup Final

[manchesterunitedman1]

Dorking wrote:

Just the fact it says FA Cup Final on it screams fraud to me. In that era, it would have been known as the English Cup Final

Of course, but that goes without saying but the images were so poor i had to get an expert on the item before i concerned myself with the wording, i suspecting the font was wrong anyway.

Here are some original items with just that wording

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjsm7ueb

Surprisingly on the "Official" Match card there is nothing appertaining to English, yet it is there for all to see on the "Souvenir" WH Smith edition.

I am not certain when the term "The English Cup Final " was dropped, would it have been once Wembley staged the 1923 out of interest or prior ?.


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[Dorking]

What's the story with the silver miniature of the original FA Cup trophy Leslie? Can't be many of those made?

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

Fascinating!!

I have a booklet "The FA Cup Annual - 50 Years of English Cup Finals".

It covers 1885 to 1935.

Near the back there is an index of all the team photos included and they are all described as "Winners English Cup".

Checking a few websites now it's not clear at all when the name changed, for instance, the FA's website refers to Wanderers winning the FA Cup in 1872. But I suppose the FA would say that, wouldn't they? 1923 isn't a bad shout or maybe 1927 when Cardiff won it to take it out of England for the first time. Anyone with pre-war Cup final programmes might be able to narrow it down but I wouldn't bank on it.

Players' Cigarette cards showing all cup winners, dated 1930, refers to them as "Association Cup Winners".

I think this may run and run.....

[Rocky]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

so what is it and the answer is it is a Trench Whistle from the 1914-18 Great War!

Interesting to note that the seller also has some militeria items for sale.
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[RoddyN]

This guy and some others whom have been caught with the fakes have done the rounds of the Auction Houses and have been advised accordingly.

[silkman1]

Seems from his feedback he also does deal in military memorabilia.

[Carlisleprogs]

Slightly off topic but relevant to the 1909 Cup Final:

About 40+ years ago my Dad mentioned to our rather posh next door neighbours that I was really keen on football. A few days later, Mr Deakin, who must have been in his late 70s, brought round two pieces of family football memorabilia for me to see. The first was a photo of his father, a director of Manchester United, with the 1909 team and the second item was his father’s 1909 cup winners medal. At that time directors must have been given a medal along with the team.

The neighbour died a few years later and I assume the medal went back to his family. I don’t think I will ever hold a cup winners medal again so the one I have held briefly is a rather good one.

[giorgio]

What an excellent and interesting post. Well done on your detective work. I thought the wooden box was a bit too good to be true as well.

[giorgio]

I've just checked, 'whistle' on the seller's feedback. He's also sold a 1934 FA Cup Final whistle for £103 in the past six months. You might find one at an antique fair - but two?!!

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

I'm told this seller has had a few name-changes and sells nothing but fakes. Please be careful everyone.

[sydenham hill]

Hi Guys

Another seller also based in Scotland had a 1901 Cup Final referees engraved whistle, i managed to get it for £362. I won it on the Sunday evening, the seller wanted payment by 10 am Monday morning as he wanted to post it off to me, i duly obliged and a week later it arrived!

By now i was becoming suspicious as i had just found out a 1914 cup final engraved referees whistle had been withdrawn from a recent auction
I contacted the seller with my concerns and said i would like to take it to my local auctioneer Anthenium Auctioneers to get a professional opinion which i did yesterday, he advised me to send it back and get a refund as it was a fake, fortunately the seller was happy to have it back and give me a full refund, i sent i back this morning to his address in Glasgow, the seller is a Polish guy.

I wouldn't touch the 1909 whistle as the seller who is also from Scotland could be linked to my seller, i have also discovered a third seller based in Scotland that is selling similar engraved items

[manchesterunitedman1]

sydenham hill wrote:

Hi Guys Another seller also based in Scotland had a 1901 Cup Final referees engraved whistle, i managed to get it for £362. I won it on the Sunday evening, the seller wanted payment by 10 am Monday morning as he wanted to post it off to me, i duly obliged and a week later it arrived! By now i was becoming suspicious as i had just found out a 1914 cup final engraved referees whistle had been withdrawn from a recent auction I contacted the seller with my concerns and said i would like to take it to my local auctioneer Anthenium Auctioneers to get a professional opinion which i did yesterday, he advised me to send it back and get a refund as it was a fake, fortunately the seller was happy to have it back and give me a full refund, i sent i back this morning to his address in Glasgow, the seller is a Polish guy. I wouldn't touch the 1909 whistle as the seller who is also from Scotland could be linked to my seller, i have also discovered a third seller based in Scotland that is selling similar engraved items

1909 was a Pole as well-he needs one shoving up his orifice for sure!-and despite reporting it to Ebay days ago-it is still on, profit b4 everything else!.
If anyone needs advise on a whistle contact Acme!

well you know what they say Andrew-if it is too good to be true-then it is! lucky escape, he does not care he will snare someone else in and has more than one anyway!.
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[Dorking]

giorgio wrote:

I've just checked, 'whistle' on the seller's feedback. He's also sold a 1934 FA Cup Final whistle for £103 in the past six months. You might find one at an antique fair - but two?!!

He's already sold 3 whistle's in the last 6 months claimed to have interesting pasts

[sydenham hill]

The actual whistle from in the 1934 F A Cup final used by Sir Stanley Rous sold at Graham Budds sale last November i think for 4 figures

[Bren]

I’ve only just seen this topic.
The guy is very careful not to say that any of his items belonged to the person concerned.
I have reported him to EBay on a couple of occasions, but of course, as long as they’re getting their commission they’re not interested.
If you look at all of all of his items, my guess is he’s picking up whatever tat he can at car boot sales etc., the engraving them himself.

[sydenham hill]

Hi Leslie
It looks like the guy has targeted the 2 most collectable early Cup Finals 1901 and 1909

[RoddyN]

He has also brought the 1915 FA Cup Final to market another iconic match.