The Football Programme Centre - A Moan Not A Rant

[mancitymark]

Now this is not a rant by any means but something that has got my thinking going of late regarding this site over the last month or so, Mainly due to being priced, in my opinion, well over the odds for small collections of City programmes.

Now my knowledge of the programme price range is very limited but I’m not a fool, I feel its fast becoming a waste of time to actually post any wants lists as the pound note sign’s tend light up for others reading that section of the forum straight away, Now I have a lot of time for a lot of the poster’s on here and would always go out of my way to help a fellow programme collector, In the beginning this site had a real collectors respect/feel amongst it’s poster’s but of late it feel’s like a hunting ground for dealers who are hell bent on squeezing as much ££ as possible out of any deals, I may add that there was a time on here when you could really do ‘a deal’ with fellow poster’s but sadly I feel that has gone

I would never name names but it wasn’t long ago I was quote £32 for 13 City home programmes from seasons 59/60 onwards on here, Most of which you can pick up at around £1 each any way(IMO) and most of the ones I was offered had some kind of damage, Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on the above.

I just feel that once this site loses its respect then it will lose the real football programme collector.

Views please
_________________
Every Man Needs A Hobby

[surfinjim]

I think part of the problem might be the sudden upsurge in new members on here. We have shot up from 500 to over 620 in the space of 3 months or so.

On the odd deals I do on here, it tends to be with the old school users who have been on from the start or within the first 6 months.

That said, I haven't picked anything of note for 6 months! My only purchases in the last month have been from auction and not cheap!


Jim
_________________
26th December 1979

Bolder, Blackhall, Williamson, Smith, Pickering, Hornsby, King, Johnson, McCulloch, Mellor, Curran.

Scorers; Mellor, King, Curran, Smith (pen)

GODS EVERY ONE OF THEM!

[ToffeeDan]

I've been offered a few items. All decent prices to be fair. I do accept that there are some prices which are less reasonable on offer - just as there are sites with ludicrously high prices (no need to name them!) but, take it or leave it is my POV - don't be held to ransom.

[goonerboy]

The problem is that there are no facts about prices, it is all about something that is agreeable to seller and buyer. Thus I would also suggest that it is perfectly reasonable for there to be negotiation on a price by means of a counter offer if initial quote is not compatible with both parties. Invariably in life a seller wants the most reasonably possible for selling something and the buyer wants to buy it as cheap as possible. I don't think I have ever heard of a deal where the buyer thought the seller's price was too low and offered to pay more. It is almost invariably the other way round. However the basis of a good transaction is that both parties are happy with what they have so when buying I would always counter-offer first, await a response and if still unsatisfactory then walk away.

I have seen on Programme Monthly that they have a list of what is considered to be a sensible price by year as a guidance. Maybe something similar is worthwhile here and could be a price guide that is agreed by forum members.

These days with auctions and eBay etc I don't really know what constitutes a dealer anymore as the vast majority of collectors sell items for one reason or another. Are we all therefore dealers to some extent ? It seems that its a shade of grey now rather than black and white. Not to mention that even most of the full time dealers are avid collectors and some with fantastic collections. There are very few for whom programmes are purely business.

The other thing to bear in mind/ask is that in reality can the programmes be bought for a lot less ? As per other threads an eBay purchase is not just item price but also p&p (usually £1 - £1.50) so buying things individually is rarely only £1 but £2-£3. The other main source of purchases is dealers catalogues but they list 50s items for £3 upwards and 60s for £2ish then plus p&p. Thus I guess as more folks come on the site there will be more folks who also sell through eBay or auctions and thus offer items at similar prices.

Anyway bottom line to me is that the spirit is still there as long as both parties are willing to negotiate.

[Auchinleckian]

As someone who's bought a lot of items on here from single items to large collections I think I can safely state that the site is unparalleled for opportunity to purchase. There's not the cost of advertising at so much per word which can be excessive, especially as the vendors can list their condition realistically without incurring extra cost.
Surfinjim's right as well about a lot of the deals being done by folk who've been on here for a while. I've nothing but praise for the folk I've bought stuff from as it's all been carried out professionally, friendly, and I've built up some really good relationships as a result and regularly exchange with the Celticviking in Denmark. He gets good autographs gratis, I get good programmes the same - it's a great way of doing things and it enhances both our collections for the price of an airmail parel.
I find it a buying rather than selling forum as it doesn't matter what I put up I get very little response to it, whereas I buy regularly. Did sell the cigarette card albut that the guy with miracle selling powers had at £158 yesterday along with two others for £15 about 6 weeks back, and was over the moon at getting something for them. Got real money for them as well...........
What I would like to see on here is a set price section. Pastpirate and Foxes1 always have decent item reasonably priced, but then there's always people looking for offers for the most mundane of programmes. Just have the courage of your convictions to put a reasonable price against an item.
Finally....13 Man. City programmes for 59-60 season at £32 is equivalent to £2.50 per programme. That's not over the top, especially to get 13 in one go. I'm sorry but the argument that they're cheaper on ebay doesn't wash with me as if they were then surely they'd have been bought off there in the first instance. You might find a few from that season on ebay, but as the previous posted said, once you take postage etc into account you'd be paying well over £32 by the time you purchased them all sperately. At the end of the day £2.50 ifor a 59-60 programme is still cheaper, and far more evocative than the modern match day magazine, and it's 50 years old.
Do I sound like a grumpy old man?

[kcs]

Interesting little thread this....

I am totally on the fence with this one, I have also noticed that certain people are trying to off load run of the mill Programmes for expensive prices but also still believe you can find run of the mill items for a good and fair price.

With the eBay boom has indeed led to an increase of sellers, which in the long run must be good for the buyer. This site will only attract and keep the 'greedy' sellers if the buyer pays the money... Prime example is a well known dealer who offers Programmes at a higher rate than most. I have gained several gems from this site whilst also selling some good stuff too.

Would also like to highlight that if anyone has 13 Leeds homes from 59/60 for sale at £32 then please pm me. We may be able to agree a price
_________________
Nuts and Bolts Web Design
https://www.nutsandboltsarchive.co.uk/portfolio.php

Showcase your collection in an online programme guide!
Display your research in a comprehensive history archive!

[paulo]

Agree this is an interesting thread.

Have not had any troubles on this site at all as a buyer however as a seller I have had 3 buyers who have asked for stuff, I have sorted it out, offered them a discount for buying in bulk on very cheap items and then they disappear, and I have a funny feeling this may be about to happen for a fourth time!

[holtie96]

agree with everything said here, but have to say that I would rather somebody quote me a price like the forementioned £32 for 13 programmes as there is then room either to negotiate, pay or politely decline. I do find it frustrating when I make an enquiry and somebody asks for an offer and then says i think they are worth more. If that is the case, quote a price or a minimum and it saves people time.
I have also had very positive experiences swapping, buying and selling on here, although I think we do need to be careful with the growth of this site as it won't be long before someone tries to take advantage or pulls a fast one. On that note are we protected in any way on this site? Probably opened a completely new topic!

[Rocky]

As many have said this is an interesting thread and a lot of good points have been made by all.

In Marks defence he did say that he was quoted £32 for 13 City home programmes from seasons 59/60 onwards and most had some kind of damage. What if a majority of those 13 were from the 70's? If they could have been picked up for approx £1 each then this may indicate that they were.

[pastpirate]

I decided before I ever put anything in my for sale list that I would use the same prices as the programme center itself. I felt those prices were fair when I was a buyer so how could I ask for more when selling. Of course each person knows the progs from their team that are rare and so attract a higher price and I am no different. There are a few Rovers ones that when listed will be a fair bit higher than normal.
_________________
I am not gas, I am a Pirate.

www.bristolroversmemorabilia.weebly.com The definitive list of Bristol Rovers programmes

[goonerboy]

[quote="holtie96"]I do find it frustrating when I make an enquiry and somebody asks for an offer and then says i think they are worth more. If that is the case, quote a price or a minimum and it saves people time.

I'm not sure I agree with that comment totally. Just because somebody makes an offer it shouldn't automatically mean that it is accepted. A seller indicating that is too low is no different than a buyer indicating to a seller that his price is too high and making a lower counter-offer. In addition a bulk lot is a bit of of an open ended situation as to what is an acceptable reduction. There is also the risk that a buyer just offers a ridiculously low price.

This thread started about whether the respect and good will was being eroded. To me it is all about both buyer and seller going into a dialogue with respect for the items and each other. In our hobby prices are not immutable facts just sliding scales. As we have seen on various threads a highly valuable item can sometimes be picked up cheap or vice versa (eg a bog standard Wolves v Honved can go for a ridiculous price). Thus "price" is something we pay and is simply linked to how much that programme is worth to the buyer or how keen/desperate the buyer is to purchase. I have paid over the odds before on items because it completed a mini collection. Likewise I have waited for items to come round cheaper second or third time because they weren't that important to my collection at that time.

Of course people can disagree on price but then fine just walk away and accept there is no deal to be done. As collectors and fellow collectors as buyers we shouldn't get annoyed because the seller doesn't just accept our offer immediately and similarly as sellers we should be open to discuss counter offers. If both parties are in it to do a deal then invariably a good deal can be done.

[holtie96]

I understand what you are saying Gonnerboy, my point was that a lot of time is wasted with people hanging out for some huge offer that isn't going to happen. What i was trying to stress is that it helps if people give some indication of what they are looking for price wise, that's where minimum bids help. People ask for an offer, say it is worth more (no problem with this) but then will not say how much more. If somebody thinks they know what it is worth, then give an asking price. I think this would help all concerned.
As for the comments regarding the good will of this site, Tofee Dan has just helped me with a programme I have been looking for, for some time. He has gone out of his way to help both in terms of his time and some personal cost (albeit relatively small) to help a fellow collector. In this respect, the spirit of this site is alive and kicking!
Best wishes
Holtie