Football Programmes Centre

thfcbasil · Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 341

Danny said the game was about glory, winning things with style. Today it is about money. Finishing fourth in the Premier league and champions league football is the holy grail, nothing else matters. Not winning cups, how else can you explain the woefully inadequate team Tottenham fielded. Even their best side would have struggled but that side did not have a hope. Dortmund fielded their best team and even though they have an unassailable lead will, I suspect, do the same next week. Aston Villa Sunday is more important, what a joke. What angers me is that Tottenham sent a full strength team away to Qarabag a round trip of about 2000 miles before a Sunday lunchtime kick off against Chelsea. Why do this in earlier rounds if you throw in the towel later? Is Poch running scared that Tottenham will not finish in the top four? it now makes sense to field a total reserve team in the second leg but he won't. Bournemouth are a much better side than Villa and on a good run of form away, the Dortmund game is gone. If they get one, Spurs need five. No chance. All this to try to qualify for a competition they have no chance at all to win! Where is the glory in finishing fourth? Sorry Danny football is not about glory in the premier league it is all about money. What have we got to when given the option of winning the FA cup or finishing fourth the choice is clear. Money will dictate sooner or later that the rich clubs will form a European super league. A closed shop dictated by finance not ability on the pitch. No place for fairy tale underdogs like Leicester, what a shame.

James73 · Joined: 09 Oct 2013 Posts: 419 Location: Gravesend, Kent

I totally agree, we were one of the favourites to win the competition and it was a shame that we drew another favourite but why do we not go out and try to win this cup.

The game is all about the glory and we have a tradition of that. Nothing bit winning a shiny cup and that is what we need to do!!

I saw a lot of tweets last night too from very annoyed Spurs fans who traveled to the game to witness it. A 4-0 home win might make up for it but then again I can only dream!!!

bisphamseasider · Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2731 Location: Blackpool

James73 wrote:

I totally agree, we were one of the favourites to win the competition and it was a shame that we drew another favourite but why do we not go out and try to win this cup.

Precisely, because by winning the cup Spurs would have qualified for next season's Champions League irrespective of final league position.

Five and In · Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Posts: 1436 Location: Dawlish, Devon

Agree with the points raised, but feel that the scheduling has a lot to do with the disdain showed for the Europa Cup also.
Thursday night matches are to line UEFA's pockets and nothing else.
No thought for the travelling fans (as usual) or the recovery time needed if a full strength team is fielded.
In England we are victims of the strength of our league, where no match is a stroll in the park, unlike some other leagues across Europe.
No excuses for last night. We were thumped, but I don't think Poch is bottling it. I believe he has just woke up to the fact we are in the title race and has prioritised the league over Europe. If we were a couple of places lower in the league, Kane and others would have started last night.

thfcbasil · Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 341

Not sure how it is much different playing Thursday then Sunday rather than Wednesday and Saturday as is often the case in the champions league. I agree that our league is more competitive with no give me games. However,results this year have clearly shown that none of our top teams are the level of the best in Europe. Would Bayern or Barcelona win our league and the answer is an emphatic yes by some distance. The problem is all our eggs are now firmly in one basket. The team selection in Dortmund will be fully justified if Tottenham actually win the Premiership. A couple of weeks ago I thought they might but now Leicester and even Manchester City who both have easier run ins must be favourites. Would 3rd or 4th justify almost giving up on the Europa league? Comes back to my original point and that is qualifying for the champions league is more important than trying to win a trophy. It makes it even more odd as the winners this year get a champions league place anyway. What does Poch do in the return leg? Picking a full strength side makes no sense now. Can even the most ardent fan see us overturn a 3-0 deficit? Common sense and logic says he should pick an even weaker team and save the others for Bournemouth. The first choice side went to Qarabag why not to Dortmund? Makes no sense to me or does he think Villa are better than Chelsea?Time will tell.

whitenoize · Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 203

Bilic would rather win the FA Cup then finish fourth. Still he might just do both......

Tynie Topics · Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3572

The disdain shown by English clubs towards the Europa League is nothing new, Bolton Wanderers and Aston Villa are two clubs that spring to mind who have "previous", and look at them now.

Even the "Greatest Cup Competition in the World" (c) English media, is treated with contempt these days.

When finishing fourth becomes more important than winning a European trophy you know the games up.
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sharrowblade · Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:31 am Post subject:

thfcbasil wrote:

Comes back to my original point and that is qualifying for the champions league is more important than trying to win a trophy.

With all due respect, don't the Premier League Winners get a trophy?
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thfcbasil · Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 341

You obviously do but when finishing in the top four is more important than winning a cup any glory is long gone to greed. If Tottenham win the Premier league then Poch will be a lauded for his decision. If not then throwing in the towel in the cups will, in my opinion, be a poor choice. Bilic is right. Nobody remembers the sides who do not win anything but to win at Wembley fans and players will always remember, Ricky Villa and that great replay for instance. What point, apart from financial gain, is there in either Tottenham or West Ham getting in the champions league? Neither side have any chance at all of winning it. Great to watch the best in Europe but not if they are taking your team apart. Just ask the Tottenham fans returning from Dortmund.

wdy11 · Joined: 14 Mar 2010 Posts: 418 Location: Kent

Whilst I'm not backing Poch's decision, Eric Dier and Dele Alli have featured in almost every game with Dier filling in at CB for some games. It gets to a point in the season when players need to be rested and the manager will have known best. The questions we have to ask are 'If we played a stronger team against Dortmund would the result have been any better'. Potentially not as they are leagues above us in quality. However if players played and then we couldn't field a fully fit team against Villa which costs us points then thats our title challenge over. Yes Man City and Leicester have easier run in's but as Man City proved against Norwich today they can slip and I'd rather give 100% at trying to win the Premier League.

pompeypete · Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Posts: 1094

wdy11 wrote:

Whilst I'm not backing Poch's decision, Eric Dier and Dele Alli have featured in almost every game with Dier filling in at CB for some games. It gets to a point in the season when players need to be rested and the manager will have known best. The questions we have to ask are 'If we played a stronger team against Dortmund would the result have been any better'. Potentially not as they are leagues above us in quality. However if players played and then we couldn't field a fully fit team against Villa which costs us points then thats our title challenge over. Yes Man City and Leicester have easier run in's but as Man City proved against Norwich today they can slip and I'd rather give 100% at trying to win the Premier League.

Rested ? Rested? These players are superfit, playing on the best pitches and backed by the best physios etc......

Just tooooooo much money in the premier.....every thing else is nothing....
Fac cup, micky mouse cup....sorry uefa cup

Even hull had about 7 or 8 changes for their cup match......promotion is the be all...
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thfcbasil · Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 341

Well seven changes and a victory at Villa Park, neither much of a surprise. i tend to agree with Pompey pete that the players have every benefit today. Great pitches, an army of back room staff, every possible help. Why then can they not play a midweek game and need resting? I may be wrong as I have not checked but in Spurs double year they used the same team virtually every week. I think there were only 14 or 15 players used in the entire season. 42 league games as well, no subs, heavy pitches and far more physical contact. Arsenal also played very much the same team 10 years later to emulate Tottenham and were also in Europe. How on Earth did Manchester United ever win the treble? Not sure regarding players used and games played as they would have had a squad rather than just a regular starting eleven. How often did they rotate? Many United fans on this forum I am sure can answer that, I have no idea. English teams seem to abandon some competitions in favour of others they consider more important. Manchester City in the FA cup being a clear example. Continental teams do not seem to do this and often win all the domestic competitions as well as the European ones. Yes, they must rotate to a degree but the team selection of City in the FA cup and Tottenham in the Europa gave their sides no chance of progressing. What do Tottenham do in the second leg? Logic would say the tie is over and therefore they should select an even weaker team. not sure that will happen. As for Dortmund I believe they will send their best side and will not make the mistake of resting seven or eight first team players. If they do rest most of them and Tottenham pick their best side then I think we will find there is a chance that the 1st leg score could be reversed. It will not happen as the Germans will take it seriously even with their massive advantage.

Five and In · Joined: 15 Sep 2015 Posts: 1436 Location: Dawlish, Devon

A few things I would like to bring to this debate.

1. Having picked that team last week in Dortmund, Poch HAS to concede the tie and rest as many as he can on Thursday. He gambled and lost, but there is no halfway house on this one. It's gone, so don't risk injuries.

2. Regarding the number of games our teams play. For years I have been mystified how in days gone by teams could play on swamps without any need for rotation. It was an insult to be left out. If you were fit and playing well, you played. Todays teams play on carpets and most managers operate revolving door team selections.

3. Apart from Dortmund, Poch and Ranieri have pretty much kept to the same teams where possible this season. Familiarity breeds consistency.

4. Statto time!!
In 1981/82 Tottenham challenged on four fronts - We won the FA Cup, finished runners up in the League Cup, CWC Semi finalists and 4th in the league as our tilt at the title ran out of steam in a fixture pile up. We also shared the Charity Shield.
66 games in all
3 players played in over 60 games
4 more played in over 50 games
25 players were used of whom 9 of them played less than 5 games.

Not too much resting time there. My point being, when you are successful, you push yourself to the limits.

sharrowblade · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject:

I understand the sentiments, I do. If you're in a competition you should try to win it. Bilic is right, Nobody remembers who came third or fourth, but supporters and players remember trips to wembley etc etc. We all get that.

However, Bilic has that luxury, West Ham aren't going to win the League. Spurs might. They aren't playing for fourth this season. If West Ham were in a similiar position, what would Bilic do, what would Messrs Gold and Sullivan say?

All teams have historically disappointing results in Europe. I recall some very disappointing European nights for Manchester United before they won in 1998-9 and since, and they were a far more established team than the current Spurs one.

Then there's the accusation of 'throwing the towel in' with regards to Cup competitions, yes on one hand you could argue that with some justification.... but then on the other hand, saying what's the point of getting into the Champions League when 'we've no chance of winning it', appears to be sentiment alien to your original argument.

It isn't fair to compare the great Spurs side of the early 60s with the current side. They were a great team that won things, the current side are a good side that haven't won anything yet. we can talk about the pitches, the medical help, diets, training practices, the money etc etc,...... but the game's moved on, its unrecognizable from what it was 50 years ago, some of it for the better, a lot of it sadly not.

Of course, I'm only jealous. Be thankful for what you've got. The youngest squad in the Premier, a very able manager. play an attacking brand of football, and are more resolute than ever.

Basically everything that we're not.

If any Spurs fan is finding it a struggle with their situation this season, then give us a call and I'll supply you with a ticket to oblivion down at Bramall Lane.
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Tynie Topics · Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3572

sharrowblade wrote:

I understand the sentiments, I do. If you're in a competition you should try to win it. Bilic is right, Nobody remembers who came third or fourth, but supporters and players remember trips to wembley etc etc. We all get that.

However, Bilic has that luxury, West Ham aren't going to win the League. Spurs might. They aren't playing for fourth this season. If West Ham were in a similiar position, what would Bilic do, what would Messrs Gold and Sullivan say?

West Ham are two points off a CL place, but Bilic wants to win the FA Cup and I guess that's what the majority of fans would prefer if it was one or the other.
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pompeypete · Forum Moderator Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Posts: 1094

And of course with the amount of money in the premiership, the top teams should have at least 2 players as good as each other for every position...

Next season with £100M to spend......what are they going to do with it ??

Is the football fair play still in operation ?

Where will it all end !!!!
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sharrowblade · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject:

Tynie Topics wrote:

West Ham are two points off a CL place, but Bilic wants to win the FA Cup and I guess that's what the majority of fans would prefer if it was one or the other.

.

Of course, Tynie, we all would, wouldn't we?

But Spurs are two points off the top.

It isn't about finishing fourth anymore.

League Champions or Europa Cup winners, the odds are always against winning anything but I think in Spurs case this season the majority of the fans would prefer the former.
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capetown3673 · Joined: 28 Mar 2015 Posts: 132

Resting players really makes me laugh these are really tough times for superfit premier league plavers.

In season 1965/66 Bobby Moore played neatly 60 games for West Ham United and England. A further 6 games and he won the World Cup, then he started pre season matches with West Ham.All that after recovering from testicular cancer Sorry but todays players are whimps.

wdy11 · Joined: 14 Mar 2010 Posts: 418 Location: Kent

You can't compare the double winning team to todays team. The game has changed. They didn't have to deal with long travels to far away lands like Azerbaijan. And I'm pretty sure with 10 European games already included in our season already its already looking like a longer season than they had. The game is surely much quicker these days to.

I don't like coining the term superfit. If a player has an injury or picks up a knock it can still take days to recover regardless of the quality of medical staff.

Yes the team didn't include some key players against Dortmund however they still had 8 full international players with plenty of experience. The team should have played much better.

Lot's of people saying we would give up the Europa League for a decent premier league position. You forget we are 2 points from the top and still very much in with a very good shot of winning it. If Leicester slip we will be chomping heels especially with Man City dropping points. If you asked me (and any realistic Tottenham fan) would you rather throw the towel in against Dortmund (who are favourites for the Europa League and a much better team than us) for a chance to really challenge for the Premier League in what will be our best chance in decades to win it, Yes.

I'll be cheering on Newcastle tonight!

Tynie Topics · Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3572

It's a sad day when a club, any club, feels they need to field weakened teams when they are only playing 2 games a week at the absolute maximum.

Premier League AND Europa League should have been Spurs aim.
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