Possible forgery - Coleraine v Kilmarnock 1970 query

[garyspain]

This item has come to light in Scotland recently having previously been thought to be a non issue. I’m skeptical given the amount of fakes recently although if this is a fake it is a good one.

I’ve spoken to collectors who were collecting at the time and they are adamant nothing was done.

I’d appreciate your thoughts.

I’m still checking a couple of facts I don’t want to put in the public domain yet.

I’m also conscious of giving forgers more insight as to what not to get wrong next time.

The Coleraine lineup is identical to that in the programme for the 2nd leg at Killie. It includes a mistake in the spelling of Johnny McCurdy who was with Coleraine for many years and was spelt correctly in their 65, 69 and 70 European issues. The McCurdie spelling is a more common name in Scotland and it is easy to see how the Killie editor would have made such an error particularly if taking names over the phone. I think it highly unlikely a Coleriane person would wrongly use the ie version given the McCurdy spelling is much more common in Northern Ireland.

The editorial is loosely based on the programme for the 2nd leg. Definitely if genuine the Killie editor had it at the time and used it in production of their issue. While copying stuff from other programmes at the time (or even now) is not that unusual it would have meant at least one copy at the time was brought back and failed to surface for 40 years.

Three different fonts were used on the team page – Times, Copperplate and Helvetica. All were invented before 1970 but would have been a lot of work in those days of printing plates to change fonts. Obviously no problem with a wordprocessor.

I haven’t seen the item and don’t know if it is letterpress (hardest thing to fake). One leading dealer and a leading Killie collector have apparently both seen it and taken it as being genuine.

I would like some help on the three paragraphs
Apparently it is possible to tell from the spacing whether they were done on a wordprocessor or on old fashioned printing plates. Anybody know an expert? Apparently that is how it was determined documents supposedly from George Bush’s national guard duty of the early 70’s were fake.

The wraparound structure of the three paragraphs looks suspicious to me. With all the text being centred – this is an option on MSWord and easy to do but tough to do on plates I’d imagine. Any experts care to comment?

[Dorking]

Don't have anything other than a gut feeling to go on, but it's the font and the 'word processed' look of the three paragraphs of writing that look wrong to me - it just looks too modern.

Don't know why, but I'd expect it to have some sort of advert on it, and possibly where it was printed.

Looking at my old stuff from that sort of time, one thing you notice if you study it, is the frequent use of italics . I'd have expected perhaps the word complimentary to be in italics.

I'll now leave my uneducated ramblings, and let more qualified people comment.

[DannyRoberts]

The man to contact might be Douglas Stevenson of D & D Programmes in Kilmarnock. His telephone number is 01563 573316

[Tynie Topics]

Is this a single sheet or a 4 pager?

Personally, I don’t think the centred text on the back page looks right, particularly on the team lines. Also, the arbitrary placement of “complimentary” on the bottom of the (presumably) back page doesn’t feel right. Front cover wise there’s the two pics of the Fairs Cup, why two and why not just one with more prominence for such a prestigious match? It suggests desk top publishing to me.

For me, if this game was always known as a non issue with no copies ever surfacing to date, I’d be very sceptical. It’s not as if the game was in Albania, it was only across the water.
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[Fishy]

HI Gary,

I've just sent a link to this item to my brother in law who is a time served printer to see if he can shed any light on the printing side of this.
ian

[garyspain]

Really appreciate the responses.

I have asked Douglas already. He seemed happy enough to believe it was genuine but probably hasn't examined it in detail.

Would really appreciate an expert view on the paragraphs.

[Auchinleckian]

Can't comment on the fonts etc as it's not my thing. Have you noticed as well, though, in the first paragraph they don't even use a capital letter for their ground the Showgrounds. To me, that would really start to ring the alarm bells. I'd never, ever spell a clubs ground - especially my own - without capital letters.

[1980Cossie]

If you type ''Fairs Cup Logo'' in to an internet search engine the first one that comes up that can be copy and pasted is the exact same one shown on the bottom of the programme see link below. I have just made a programme up identical in about 3/4 minutes in my ''write email'' using a mixture of 14 to 36 font sizes, the three fonts as previously mentioned above and Bold, some lines or words need to be centralised and some custom placed with double of treble gaps between words or letters, in my opion its fake but if anybody would like a copy of mine please send a s.a.e

http://www.infofootballonline......byyear.htm

[1980Cossie]

[Tynie Topics]

1980Cossie wrote:

Oh dear
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[garyspain]

1980Cossie wrote:

Excellent.

[Henryheart]

You may wish to contact Richard Cairns. As well as being the Killie programme editor he has been collecting for many years and would have been doing so when the game was played. It really is not that long ago and there will be many people, including some collectors, still around who attended the game. Given this I would be astounded if this is genuine.

[dlb]

Coleraine played Sparta Rotterdam in the second round - can any collector put up a scan of the programme for that game, so we can compare the two.

[Fishy]

Fishy wrote:

HI Gary, I've just sent a link to this item to my brother in law who is a time served printer to see if he can shed any light on the printing side of this. ian

Reply from B.I.L.:
Hi Ian, It looks a bit suspicious to me, looks more like word processor, the helvetica looks very dodgy, but having said that if it is a copy, they've added a lot of full stops which is how things were done more so back then (v. for instance), that's something you wouldn't normally do today, not really an easy one to call!

Remember he is a printer not a programme collector - I think the first sentence says it all.

ian

[garyspain]

Thanks Ian. Given that if th8is is a copy the person who did it was trying to make it as genuine as possible these fullstops are hardly a surprise.

A famous American newsreader Dan Rather had his career ended in disgrace when CBS ran with documents from George Bush's National Guard duty in the early 70's. These were later proved to have been done on a wordprocessor and therefore fake. Since the possibility of the Pentagon using a wordprocessor in the early 70's was totally ruled out (they did exist in IBM labs since the late 60's) I think ruling out Coleraine football club from using one at the time is also fair enough.

[garyspain]

The Sparta programme is totally different but in fairness so are their other euro homes from 65 and 69 all different from each other. They all have their own players spelt correctly though. They also all have a price - the thought of Coleraine having a "complimentary" programme at the time also raised a few eyebrows.

Coleraine failed to issue v Anderlect in 69 and v Feyenoord in 74 and almost certainly v Kilmarnock in 1970. They issued v Dynamo Kyiv in 65, Jeunnese 69 and Sparta 70.

I'm told Richard Cairns validated this issue albeit a bit surprised in a recent Killie programme. I've spoken to one Northern Ireland collector of the time and he is still collecting. He is adamant nothing was done.

[MATT RUSH]

1980Cossie wrote:

If you type ''Fairs Cup Logo'' in to an internet search engine the first one that comes up that can be copy and pasted is the exact same one shown on the bottom of the programme see link below. I have just made a programme up identical in about 3/4 minutes in my ''write email'' using a mixture of 14 to 36 font sizes, the three fonts as previously mentioned above and Bold, some lines or words need to be centralised and some custom placed with double of treble gaps between words or letters, in my opion its fake but if anybody would like a copy of mine please send a s.a.e http://www.infofootballonline......byyear.htm

Welcome back Cossie, it's good to hear from you again.
A smart piece of detective work

[goonerboy]

I have no technical comment to make but there must have been more than one complimentary copy so i guess common sense is that is it really likely that over 40 years no-one has ever heard about it ?

[Senior82]

The jury has decided!!
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[Tynie Topics]

Senior82 wrote:

The jury has decided!!

Looks like it, the Foreman of the jury has announced a unanimous verdict
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