VIP & Media only programmes

[garyspain]

VIP and media only programmes have been common in recent years for International matches.

There was an interesting change at both of the Republic of Ireland's recent away games.

In Macedonia the programme was for sale for almost 5 euro in the away end only. Home fans paid 1.60 for their tickets so presumably weren't going to buy a programme at that price.

Russia had a free but very limited programme for the VIPs and media and were selling same for 7.50 euros in the away end. It was not for sale in the home end. It was however for sale from stalls outside the ground for prices between 4 and 7.50 euros. Almost all visiting fans travelled by bus to the game though and missed those stalls. I took the metro.

The really good news is that there were no pirates and a local collector seemed a bit insulted that I'd asked. Ukraine and Belarus are the worst offenders here for pirates and reprints.

It would appear that certain countries have realised there is a market for these programmes and they can make a few quid by offering them to away fans.

[Tynie Topics]

Interesting stuff there Gary.

Re Macedonia. When we were there in 2008, programmes appeared the night before the match (double issue with the Holland game a few days later), which were sold along the strip of bars by the river by a few pleasing on the eye ladies, and I understand the price was €4/€5. The day of the game they were also selling them around the same bars (by the way I missed all this as I was drinking elsewhere!), but I never saw any at all near the stadium despite looking around (I didn’t obtain a copy until a week or so later). I would be surprised if at that game there were any sellers at the home end, then again the organisation was shambolic which lead to a large amount of Scotland fans being locked out the game despite having Scotland end tickets (you could say they were the lucky ones…..). I’m glad to see the stadium is now finished as we’ll be back in 2012/13.

A few days after the Macedonia game we were in Iceland, and they done a reasonable 16 page programme but had to be “coaxed” into to doing one as in the weeks leading upto the game they were very non committal.

Hopefully the Spaniards continue the trend in 5 weeks time and print something to sell to the visiting fans (sadly unlikely) and Croatia do so in the next campaign!
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[garyspain]

I suspect it was enterprising locals selling to the Scotland fans. The local Russians knew how to get their hands on programmes too.

None of the locals had any for sale in advance of our game in Skopje and I did drink in those bars by the river. I also tried to order in advance from the Macedonian FA without success. I suspect they decided to make the money having seen what happened. We had no problem getting tickets either and the stadium is great (much better than when I was there in 1999)

No problem ordering from the Russian FA.

I can't see Spain doing it but I suspect many of the Eastern European countries will follow suit. It seems easier to beat Spain than to get a programme at one of their games.

[Tynie Topics]

garyspain wrote:

I suspect it was enterprising locals selling to the Scotland fans. The local Russians knew how to get their hands on programmes too.

In Kiev in 2006 an enterprising Ukranian official or journo or general suit type person, was standing outside the main door to the stadium with a bundle of VIP only programmes and selling them for £5 a pop. Needless to say I was in the wrong place at the wrong time again, but those lucky enough to get one (nearly all non-collectors) thought they had been done!

Quote:

I can't see Spain doing it but I suspect many of the Eastern European countries will follow suit. It seems easier to beat Spain than to get a programme at one of their games.

I'm hoping to get both a programme and a win in Alicante, and win the Euromillions on Friday, all equally likely
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[Tynie Topics]

Tynie Topics wrote:

I'm hoping to get both a programme and a win in Alicante, and win the Euromillions on Friday, all equally likely

Well, one out of three wasn't too bad, and considering there were apparently only 100 printed, it does feel like winning the Euromillions
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[garyspain]

Well done.

The Spanish were really prolific printers then compared to their neighbours in Andorra. they printed about 60 for our game. Strictly one per person to the media and VIPs.

[Tynie Topics]

That's not so good, did you get one?
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[Diamond Matt]

Can't you just become friends with a very nice journalist or something?

[garyspain]

I got one OK but couldn't help people I know for many years.

Even the press struggle to get these in some cases.

[Tynie Topics]

Well, there's a Spain v Scotland programme and teamsheet on ebay with a few days left and its already at £400

I also note there's an Andorra v ROI issue sitting at £50.
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[garyspain]

Spain v Scotland down to £190 from £400 due to bid retractions. 1 from a zero feedback bidder. The actual bid was £460.

Seller seems to be new to selling programmes too. However the item was well listed which is strange as normally new programmes sellers

It doesn't take a genius to figure out this could be shill bidding and very very suspect.

Caveat Emptor.

[Tynie Topics]

garyspain wrote:

Spain v Scotland down to £190 from £400 due to bid retractions. 1 from a zero feedback bidder. The actual bid was £460. Seller seems to be new to selling programmes too. However the item was well listed which is strange as normally new programmes sellers It doesn't take a genius to figure out this could be shill bidding and very very suspect. Caveat Emptor.

Back to £350 again!
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[Tynie Topics]

Well the Spain v Scotland went for £370, and I note the Andorra v ROI programme went for over £300 as well
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[Tynie Topics]

Blimey, talk about trying to cash in

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPAI.....5d30f4df71
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[The Voice of Reason]

Tynie Topics wrote:

Blimey, talk about trying to cash in http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPAI.....5d30f4df71

Don't understand your point mate? You have been telling everyone for months how hard/rare these Spanish programmes are, then commenating on the progress of one that turned up on ebay You then informed us of a final sale price of £350. As no more have surfaced I wouldn't of thought a 33% increase in price to be unrealistic and the seller to be reacting to market forces rather than 'cashing in' What would you do if you had a spare copy?

I seem to recall you also following the progress of Scotland in Brazil 1972. Although you rated that at £200 - £300 didn't 3 sell for over £1500 each? Makes Spain at £500 look a snip and perhaps you need to go back to the drawing board when in comes to valuing Scotland programmes!

[Tynie Topics]

The Voice of Reason wrote:

Tynie Topics wrote: Blimey, talk about trying to cash in http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SPAI.....5d30f4df71 Don't understand your point mate? You have been telling everyone for months how hard/rare these Spanish programmes are, then commenating on the progress of one that turned up on ebay You then informed us of a final sale price of £350. As no more have surfaced I wouldn't of thought a 33% increase in price to be unrealistic and the seller to be reacting to market forces rather than 'cashing in' What would you do if you had a spare copy? I seem to recall you also following the progress of Scotland in Brazil 1972. Although you rated that at £200 - £300 didn't 3 sell for over £1500 each? Makes Spain at £500 look a snip and perhaps you need to go back to the drawing board when in comes to valuing Scotland programmes!

£500 is a ludicrous price to ask to be honest and I bet the seller never paid anywhere near that amount for it (if anything), why not just put it up for auction and see what it makes, the last one went for £370 (and there are suspicions it was shill bid as you can see from this thread), there is another one on at the moment ending in a couple of days and I would be surprised if it makes £300. It will no doubt become a rare programme (assuming no others surface, although most major Scotland collectors have a copy), but listing it at BIN for £500 is pure profiteering and does abolutely nothing for the hobby, as you allude to, let market forces decide what its worth.

What would I do if I had a spare? give it to a friend of mine who sadly doesn't have a copy (and can only dream about paying £300 for it). If I choose to list it on ebay, it would be auction and not BIN.

As for the Independence Cup 72 programme, all prominent Scotland collectors/dealers were gobsmacked at the price, no way is it as rare as that - the fact three other copies popped up in the space of a day or two is proof of that. As we all know, when a couple of collectors are after the same programme and money is no object, prices can go sky high even for the most mundane of items.

Prices will have already settled down again when another one appears, a good friend of mine picked up a copy a year or so ago for £100, so no need to go back to drawing boards
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[The Voice of Reason]

The price the seller is asking is immaterial, that's his business and no one is being forced to pay it. The fact remains you trumpeted how hard and rare these are to obtain and then comment on someone asking a high price for same! It just makes no sense and I just found it ironic that you felt the urge to comment to that effect. As for the Brazil item, I am no expert but the £100 your friend paid a year ago is well BEFORE the high prices that have been recently achieved? In my early days of collecting I picked up pre 1930 Scotland homes for under £100. Sadly I wouldn't dream of doing so today just as I doubt you will ever see an Independence cup go for £100 again. I would have thought the fact that 3 people paid £1.5k for it demonstrated its rarity! How many are on ebay or any of the major Scottish dealers sites today?

[Tynie Topics]

The Voice of Reason wrote:

The price the seller is asking is immaterial, that's his business and no one is being forced to pay it. The fact remains you trumpeted how hard and rare these are to obtain and then comment on someone asking a high price for same! It just makes no sense and I just found it ironic that you felt the urge to comment to that effect.

A blind man knows how hard these are to get, but asking £500 for it has no basis in reality and is pure profiteering (we both know the dealer, and we know he asks very high prices and a lot of his BIN stuff on ebay is there for months if not years without selling). Do you think this sort of trading does anything to encourage people into the hobby? all it effectively does is put people off, scunnered by the high prices being asked for programmes that are only days old. You said that market forces decide the prices, I agree, BIN auctions at £500 is the dealer himself trying to drive up the price, not market forces.

Quote:

As for the Brazil item, I am no expert but the £100 your friend paid a year ago is well BEFORE the high prices that have been recently achieved? In my early days of collecting I picked up pre 1930 Scotland homes for under £100. Sadly I wouldn't dream of doing so today just as I doubt you will ever see an Independence cup go for £100 again. I would have thought the fact that 3 people paid £1.5k for it demonstrated its rarity! How many are on ebay or any of the major Scottish dealers sites today?

The £100 was a steal and wont happen again. A dealer friend of mine, when he saw the price realised by the first copy, put his spare copy on and it sold immediately to the under bidder, he was laughing all the way to the bank as it was crazy money, he valued the programme at £500 max. Another Scotland collector then put his (only) copy in his collection onto ebay as well to try and cash in on the high prices, it didn't sell as the boat had sailed on those prices. I know another collector who has a spare but resisted the temptation to try and sell. I'm not aware of a third copy selling for £1500/1700 although thats not to say it didn't happen.

The point is, NOBODY would have valued the programme at these levels, it was a surprise to everyone. Valuations now need to be revised for that particular issue, but I'm 100% certain it will never reach those levels again, market forces will dictate that.
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[The Voice of Reason]

Quote:

The £100 was a steal and wont happen again.

Interesting debating with you but I think you continually miss my point. The fact is your continual 'bigging up' the rarity of this item probably contributed to the high bidding. The dealer then putting a 33% mark up (possibly, possibly not having seen your posts?) is actually just opportunist - a bit like your dealer friend who jumped on the Brazil 1972 bandwaggon perhaps?

Your original defence of your authority on Scotland values was based on Brazil being worth only £100 - now you say it was a 'steal and wont happen again! priceless

[Tynie Topics]

The Voice of Reason wrote:

Quote: The £100 was a steal and wont happen again. Interesting debating with you but I think you continually miss my point. The fact is your continual 'bigging up' the rarity of this item probably contributed to the high bidding. The dealer then putting a 33% mark up (possibly, possibly not having seen your posts?) is actually just opportunist - a bit like your dealer friend who jumped on the Brazil 1972 bandwaggon perhaps?

How can I "big up" an item that any dealer worth their salt, particularly this well known one who has run a large reprint of a recent Spain v England "Dossier" issue due to its rarity, knows exactly just how difficult it will be? I think you lend a bit too much importance to my ramblings on here

Asking £500 BIN for the Spain v Scotland programme is not letting market forces decide value, you and I both know that.

Quote:

Your original defence of your authority on Scotland values was based on Brazil being worth only £100 - now you say it was a 'steal and wont happen again! priceless

I never said it was only worth £100, I said a mate picked up a copy for that value a year or so ago [I described it as a steal], so please don't try and put words in my mouth to try and prove, well I'm not sure what you're trying to prove other than have a snidey dig for some reason. Neither have I ever claimed to be an authority on values, again you're attributing statements to me I have never made.

Anyone with an interest in Scotland programmes would have valued the Brazil issue - prior to this recent activity - at around £250/£350. I have already said this will need to be revised [due to market forces] but its not worth anywhere near £1700, its a hard programme to get, but not super rare and the price was artificially inflated due to two well off collectors fighting it out at that moment in time.

EDIT: Some dealers need to take a long hard look at themselves and their pricing. It does nothing for the hobby to inflate prices to this extent, and it certainly doesn't encourage new Scotland collectors. List it as an auction[Spain programme], and if it only makes £100, so be it, at least one more collector will be happy.
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