Stockport County fair

[Brem75]

Another fair at County.

27th April, 10am till 130

[Brem75]

Just bumping this.
Anyone in the North West??

[Tynie Topics]

I believe there were a dozen or so vendors at this fair, but way less than 50 people through the door. That's abysmal.

There appears to be too many fairs down south, time to rationalise to around 4 or 5 major events a year?
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[PM4PM]

Local fairs work well when they are well organised and well publicised. I would estimate that there were about 40 in England last year that I knew about and all but a couple were well attended and regarded as successful by dealers and collectors alike.

[Tynie Topics]

PM4PM wrote:

Local fairs work well when they are well organised and well publicised. I would estimate that there were about 40 in England last year that I knew about and all but a couple were well attended and regarded as successful by dealers and collectors alike.

I'm not so sure, I keep hearing about low attendances and dealers opinioning that fairs are dead in England. Whilst that may be a little OTT, very few appear to get more than 100 through the door.
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[bigdavethemaddog]

Is it the sign of the times and people can't afford so much now and are cutting back?

[PM4PM]

Replying to Tynie Topics points this is something that's been said every year for the last 15 years (and probably longer). I don't know who is saying fairs are dead but the fact is that there are both dealers and collectors happy to attend year after year and the number of fairs being held is slightly increasing each year.

The numbers attending are not enormous. North London is the one I'm most familiar with. It had 6 dealers, 50 attendees, twice a year for 10 years - everyone very happy. West London, which is 7 times a year, is I'm told about double those numbers. The relatively new Essex fairs appear to be going very well, have a look at the post earlier today from Greg. The new QPR fair was a roaring success.

I'm not so familiar with the Midlands and Northern fairs but again, they are nearly all events that have taken place every year, apart from the covid period, for the last 15 years. Clearly if no-one turned up, they would soon come to an end. Some dealers do stop attending, especially when they are over 60, 65 or even 70 years of age, but there seem to be plenty of others to replace them.

These are the facts, rather than speculation or opinion, and is good news for the hobby, which has been on its last legs for at least 20 years, apparently!

So I suggest, go with the facts rather than the pessimists and soothsayers.

[Tynie Topics]

PM4PM wrote:

Replying to Tynie Topics points this is something that's been said every year for the last 15 years (and probably longer). I don't know who is saying fairs are dead but the fact is that there are both dealers and collectors happy to attend year after year and the number of fairs being held is slightly increasing each year. The numbers attending are not enormous. North London is the one I'm most familiar with. It had 6 dealers, 50 attendees, twice a year for 10 years - everyone very happy. West London, which is 7 times a year, is I'm told about double those numbers. The relatively new Essex fairs appear to be going very well, have a look at the post earlier today from Greg. The new QPR fair was a roaring success. I'm not so familiar with the Midlands and Northern fairs but again, they are nearly all events that have taken place every year, apart from the covid period, for the last 15 years. Clearly if no-one turned up, they would soon come to an end. Some dealers do stop attending, especially when they are over 60, 65 or even 70 years of age, but there seem to be plenty of others to replace them. These are the facts, rather than speculation or opinion, and is good news for the hobby, which has been on its last legs for at least 20 years, apparently! So I suggest, go with the facts rather than the pessimists and soothsayers.

"It had 6 dealers, 50 attendees, twice a year for 10 years - everyone very happy." Fair enough if everyone was happy, but that's pretty awful numbers for a city with 9m people and doesn't paint a healthy picture for the hobby I'm afraid!

The fair scene in Scotland was virtually non-existent for 20 years up until a few years ago. Now there's three/four a year spread around different towns/cities, that's more than enough and I've not been to one yet with less than 100/120 attendees and that's with a significantly smaller collector base and less dealers. That's reasonably healthy.

My original point was less is more, too many fair leads to low attendances as the market is saturated. They don't seem to be events to look forward to, you just go to the next one in a few weeks if you miss it and there's a good chance the same dealers will be there as well. The attendance numbers underline that if its facts you need.

The Essex Retro fair looks a really good concept, combining not just programme dealers but other collecting strands such as shirts, card, books etc. A great idea and a good example of modernising the hobby to attract a different type of collector.

Maybe combining a few of the smaller fairs into something like that would breathe new life into things, particularly as we've lost several of the showpiece events that still held up numbers wise.
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[PM4PM]

Thats mostly fair enough, but is somewhat different from your previous posts, which suggested that fairs were dying and there were too many of them, which is what I was responding to.

And yes, the Essex Show is a great model and I'm sure it could be replicated elsewhere, in many towns and cities across England, and indeed other parts of the UK, if there were individuals who wanted to do it, and had the relevant skills and drive, time, energy and desire.

I think there could easily be 10, 12, even 20 such events across England, if there were individuals prepared to organise them. They would be additional to existing fairs, albeit they might replace some of them, in time.

Stopping the North London Fair (in fact it has stopped) will not and has not increased the attendance at the West London fair.. Your thesis is wrong - the market is not saturated.

In Scotland there was nothing for years and now there are a number of successful events, due, I think, to someone coming along with the skills and energy to organise them, doubtless in collaboration with others.

Rather than closing down or merging fairs in London and England there is plenty of scope to increase the numbers. You just need the organisers.

In the meantime in England, as in Scotland, I applaud the organisers of the existing 40+ or so local fairs held each year. The attendances are not enormous, you are correct, perhaps 3,000 in total but the vast majority enjoy the events and return to them regularly. Dealers and sellers likewise. Please don't discourage them.

One final point about collectors in England & Scotland. There are obviously more collectors in England. But proportionate to population I would say there are at least twice as many in Scotland than England. There may be various reasons for this - I have occasionally debated this - but whatever they are, I think it's an interesting long-term aspect of the hobby.

[Tynie Topics]

PM4PM wrote:

Thats mostly fair enough, but is somewhat different from your previous posts, which suggested that fairs were dying and there were too many of them, which is what I was responding to.

IMO there are too many of them, that's my words, but I said was some dealers think fairs are a dead down south given the lack of numbers attending.

PM4PM wrote:

Stopping the North London Fair (in fact it has stopped) will not and has not increased the attendance at the West London fair.. Your thesis is wrong - the market is not saturated.

I think what you have said underlines that it actually could be saturated because in your example, the West London Fair should experience a bump in attendance to compensate there being one less fair in London to go to, but you're saying there has been no effect at all, that suggests there's plenty other options. Saturation?

PM4PM wrote:

Rather than closing down or merging fairs in London and England there is plenty of scope to increase the numbers. You just need the organisers.

I think perhaps you need customers first, the evidence suggests that unless you're trying something a little bit different, you're not going to get anything other than the norm attendance wise.

PM4PM wrote:

In the meantime in England, as in Scotland, I applaud the organisers of the existing 40+ or so local fairs held each year. The attendances are not enormous, you are correct, perhaps 3,000 in total but the vast majority enjoy the events and return to them regularly. Dealers and sellers likewise. Please don't discourage them.

I'm not discouraging anyone, but it must be helluva disheartening for someone to put the time and effort into organising a fair, and only see 30-odd people walk through the door. There needs to be better co-ordination and better quality events that collectors look forward to. Card and shirt collecting is booming and attracting a younger audience (and their events show that), programme collecting isn't (and our events show that). That's concerning.

PM4PM wrote:

One final point about collectors in England & Scotland. There are obviously more collectors in England. But proportionate to population I would say there are at least twice as many in Scotland than England. There may be various reasons for this - I have occasionally debated this - but whatever they are, I think it's an interesting long-term aspect of the hobby.

That's an interesting theory, perhaps there are more collectors in Scotland per head of population. I'm not sure how that could be substantiated.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[Tynie Topics]

Good to see some debate on here for a change, been a long time since that happened.
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[PM4PM]

Ok, we're not going to agree on some of these points and I think we've done it to death.

My info about proportionately more collectors in Scotland is not just a theory. It's based on the following experience:

- 13 years as editor of PM, in touch with several thousand collectors and others buying and selling football programmes & memorabilia

- 13 years of selling football programmes and memorabilia, with over 10,000 customers during that time

- discussion with some other sellers & dealers

[gregl2020]

As the organiser of the Essex Retro Football Show, I found this debate very interesting and close to my heart (and thanks for the kind words about the show).
I've only been doing the Essex Retro Football Show for two years, it's moved location, added cricket to the event then removed cricket and is now expanding to two rooms for the next Show...which evidences one can't rest on one's laurels!
With a limited budget it can be very difficult to get the message out there for these events. I am indebted to the likes of Programme Monthly and Backpass for their regular support but targeting the local area for an event can be hard without a sizeable budget.
I enquired about taking an advert in a free local magazine last week and even an eighth of a page was a not insignificant figure. Paid advertising on Facebook is also a very costly affair. Putting together proper signage can also be prohibitive.
I know there's a lot more I could do to get the word out on my event (and I'm sure the same applies elsewhere) but putting all that time and effort into an event and losing money isn't an option.
Even in the two years I've been doing these events, the reality is one per year is probably the best option. It's difficult to get special guests (especially ones who are genuinely going to encourage a significant number of extra attendees) and that takes time to arrange.
I definitely believe there is a lot of life left in football memorabilia events but, as has been pointed out, they have to appeal to a number of strands. Shirts and stickers/cards have undoubtedly been the growth sectors in recent times and, from my perspective, being able to collaborate with the 30th Anniversary Corinthian Convention is a massive boon to my next event in June.
Onwards and upwards.

[Tynie Topics]

PM4PM wrote:

Ok, we're not going to agree on some of these points and I think we've done it to death. My info about proportionately more collectors in Scotland is not just a theory. It's based on the following experience: - 13 years as editor of PM, in touch with several thousand collectors and others buying and selling football programmes & memorabilia - 13 years of selling football programmes and memorabilia, with over 10,000 customers during that time - discussion with some other sellers & dealers

It's just a discussion, not sure it's "done to death" after a few posts.

I've been collecting 40+ years and the thought never really occurred to me about there being proportionally more collectors in Scotland, perhaps there are. I guess we'll never know for sure.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[PM4PM]

Thanks for a further response. My assessment was that you'd made all the points you wanted to and myself likewise. If I'm wrong and there's something new you have to add to our discussion do let me know.

[Tynie Topics]

gregl2020 wrote:

As the organiser of the Essex Retro Football Show, I found this debate very interesting and close to my heart (and thanks for the kind words about the show). I've only been doing the Essex Retro Football Show for two years, it's moved location, added cricket to the event then removed cricket and is now expanding to two rooms for the next Show...which evidences one can't rest on one's laurels! With a limited budget it can be very difficult to get the message out there for these events. I am indebted to the likes of Programme Monthly and Backpass for their regular support but targeting the local area for an event can be hard without a sizeable budget. I enquired about taking an advert in a free local magazine last week and even an eighth of a page was a not insignificant figure. Paid advertising on Facebook is also a very costly affair. Putting together proper signage can also be prohibitive. I know there's a lot more I could do to get the word out on my event (and I'm sure the same applies elsewhere) but putting all that time and effort into an event and losing money isn't an option. Even in the two years I've been doing these events, the reality is one per year is probably the best option. It's difficult to get special guests (especially ones who are genuinely going to encourage a significant number of extra attendees) and that takes time to arrange. I definitely believe there is a lot of life left in football memorabilia events but, as has been pointed out, they have to appeal to a number of strands. Shirts and stickers/cards have undoubtedly been the growth sectors in recent times and, from my perspective, being able to collaborate with the 30th Anniversary Corinthian Convention is a massive boon to my next event in June. Onwards and upwards.

It looks a cracking event Greg and you've started off on the right foot by making it about much more than programmes.

That's really my overarching point, programme fairs haven't evolved in 50 years and they're slowly dying, the age demographic will see to it that this isn't going to be reversed to any significant degree.

It needs a fresh approach like you have adopted. IMO it also needs rationalisation into a few large annual events dotted around the country, although there's still a place for small, club orientated events as well.

All in my opinion of course and I'm interested in what others think.
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[Tynie Topics]

PM4PM wrote:

Thanks for a further response. My assessment was that you'd made all the points you wanted to and myself likewise. If I'm wrong and there's something new you have to add to our discussion do let me know.

It's a general debate for everyone to get involved in if they wish. Feel free to add more, or nothing at all.
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[PM4PM]

Thanks, it will be interesting to see if there are other views out there.

[ndg1860]

Hi all, just want to add my 2p.

First of all, I have been in contact with the QPR fair organiser. There were 195 through the door! A good portion of them were kids. Yes, the club itself really pushed this and a few players turned up to meet the kids and draw the door prizes and there were two tours of the ground as well.

Now, one point that is important here is that there were other things than programmes at the QPR fair. Shirts and more so, subbeteo with the son of the inventor being there for a demonstration. It is these "extras" that I believe make fairs so much more successful. A few that I feel may have done well in the past five years when I visited were Birmingham and Colchester. Both had the programme section next to a more attractive fair. In Birmingham it was a very large shirt fair and in Colchester, an antiques and collectables fair. That is, the extra non-football traffic may have led to a few unexpected sales. Neither were in the middle of town, but being with another fair, that no doubt got very good exposure, made it possible for the extra feet.

What I have noticed with a number of smaller fairs is that they have been located in, well, non-travel-friendly locations. If there is no public transport nearby, the fair will suffer as not everyone has a car. Obviously this relates to the cost of venues closer to the centres.

The three others that I have visited, other than the West London Fair, were Bristol, Wolverhampton and Lincoln. Each well organised, but each with the programmes as the primary if only items for sale. Wolves and Lincoln were held at the grounds of the football clubs representing those towns.

So, returning to the QPR example, perhaps there is a need to get more clubs themselves interested in these. Anyway, just some thoughts.

[PM4PM]

I think all these points are excellent, common sense and consensual. Programme fairs cannot exist on their own and indeed very few are these days called just Programme Fairs.

It's very much down to existing organisers how much they want to develop their events. The existing events generally make money for those involved in them and for many the enjoyment and assisting the hobby is of equal importance.

Hopefully more Greg Lansdowne's will enter the fray but in the meantime it's important IMO to remain optimistic and supportive of everyone who contributes their time and effort to organising valued events.