Man Utd v Wolves 8/2/58 .

[nozer]

A programme printed for Man Utds posponed fixture v Wolves.8th Feb 58 sold at auction at the Coleshill Hotel in Midlands for £6,000,this is thought to be one of the rarest progs in the world.

[treble99]

This is not that rare.
In fact there are quite a lot around.
It is just that this is a must have programme for all senior Manchester United collectors because of the obvious significance of the Game viz a vie the Munich air disaster.
It was mentioned on a thread earlier this week when it was said that it would not sell at its estimate of £5000/£7000.
It was also said that the Manchester United v Everton postponed programme from 1954/55 would not sell at its estimate of £2500/£3000(it sold for £2800 plus commission)
In fact,in my opinion,the Everton postponed programme is harder to find but the game not as significant as the Wolves postponed.

[manchesterunitedman1]

treble99 wrote:

This is not that rare. In fact there are quite a lot around. It is just that this is a must have programme for all senior Manchester United collectors because of the obvious significance of the Game viz a vie the Munich air disaster. It was mentioned on a thread earlier this week when it was said that it would not sell at its estimate of £5000/£7000. It was also said that the Manchester United v Everton postponed programme from 1954/55 would not sell at its estimate of £2500/£3000(it sold for £2800 plus commission) In fact,in my opinion,the Everton postponed programme is harder to find but the game not as significant as the Wolves postponed.

1. You state this is not a rare item
2. You say there are a lot around
3. You then say it is a "must have" for senior MU collectors which suggests it has to be rare if senior collectors have still not found it which is a total contradiction in terms.

Let me tell you where I am with this scenario:

36 years ago I placed an ad in the Manchester Evening News looking for United programmes, a chap called me and said he had a special programme worth a hundred pounds-he said it was the match v Wolves numbered 20 and they were all destroyed when the plane crashed as it was printed on the 6th February. I told him I had one already and he did not believe me-so i made a deal with him and said when i meet him if i can show him another copy I would give him a tenner for it-he agreed and we met and i showed him TWO COPIES and i paid a tenner and i said to him that I knew he was a printer-"How the hell do you know that" because i bought the other two from your mates at the printers that how i know!, THE ONES YOU NICKED AS A SOUVENIR BEFORE YOU BURNED THE OTHER 20,000 COPIES! At that time it was worth around £250 about on a par price wise with the Red Star Belgrade away programme. Also with the collectors that i knew for Wolves and United I estimated besides my 3 there were 12 others. During the next few years some of these 15 changed hands-i swopped one for a Red Star away, and sold another one and kept one. I eventually sold the third copy in 2000 and it went for over £5k at auction. Since then i found another copy from someone who had theirs in the 1970's so i bought his, another one turned up at Philips in Chester around 2001/2 and went for £1500 in a poor condition. Since then Sportingold sold one for £4000about 3-4 years ago and indeed there may have been another copy here or there cannot remember, and this latest one at Sporting Memories when an established collector sold up. Now there may well have been a few others that I have no knowledge of and am sure there are, so lets say another 20 being generous which with the best will in the world may get up to 40 or so on a good day-does that make it a programme that is not rare or scarce? sufficiently enough to make a collector fight against another to pay around £6000 all in? and Sporting Memories gave this a billing of one of the most sought after programmes EVER-EVER for the Wolves and Manchester United brigades, would Robert Adcock do that for it to either not sell or fall flat on his face with ino interest in such an item. I have a United collecotor friend who i know would have been in for that at that level-maybe he was the one who got it? if he was aware of the auction as he spends time abroad. Lastly, i would be interested to know what is considered as "a lot around" if they can reach £6k!
Leslie Millman-manchesterunitedman1
www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/sets

[nozer]

treble99 wrote:

This is not that rare. In fact there are quite a lot around. It is just that this is a must have programme for all senior Manchester United collectors because of the obvious significance of the Game viz a vie the Munich air disaster. It was mentioned on a thread earlier this week when it was said that it would not sell at its estimate of £5000/£7000. It was also said that the Manchester United v Everton postponed programme from 1954/55 would not sell at its estimate of £2500/£3000(it sold for £2800 plus commission) In fact,in my opinion,the Everton postponed programme is harder to find but the game not as significant as the Wolves postponed.

I am by no means an expert on Manchester United progs but the vendor did describe said has "One of the rarest progs in the world"with only another five knowen to be in exsistance. if you pick one up soon please do get in touch ,could reald do with a boost to the old pention fund.Regards Phil.

[treble99]

just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water

1 and 2-"You state that this is not a rare item""you say there are not a lot around"
By the calculation above by Manchesterunitedman1 there could possibly be as many as 40 of these programmes around.
the 40 is an estimated calculation which i neither agree nor disagree with.
The point is that if there are possibly 40 of these around then surely it is not rare.
I would consider it difficult and as a programme i would consider it significant because of the air disaster but "rare" no.i stand by my statement
3 "you say it is a must have for senior Manchester United collectors"--yes because of the significance of the game it is a must have
3 "you have made a total contradiction in terms"
i am not sure what you mean by that Leslie.What is a total contraction in terms?
Is it for instance explaining to the forum members that you are the good guy helping all collectors of all standing out.
Giving them free advice and free access to all things Manchester United on flickr
Or is it explaining(in this post) how you used your knowledge and expertise to get a programme worth £250 at the time(your valuation) down to a tenner.This programme was initially offered to you for £100 which presumably you thought was good value based on your £250 valuation.
i presume that this programme was not on your wanted list as you proudly display on your business card "i pay the highest prices for anything i require"
If anybody wants a valuation/opinion on Manchester United items from now on you might wish to ask for a second opinion.

What else is a contradiction in terms then?
I notice on an earlier post you mentioned you fought for your programmes one at a time unlike others.(presumably a dig at me)
well i note again from your business card that "i purchase large Manchester United collections"

Is there anything else on the business card that might be a contradiction in terms?
Well there is only one thing in bold capitals on the business card that i can see which is "LESLIE MILLMAN-THE FOREMOST MANCHESTER UNITED COLLECTOR"-fact or fiction.I think that this is one for another day maybe

[holtie96]

[manchesterunitedman1]

treble99 wrote:

just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water 1 and 2-"You state that this is not a rare item""you say there are not a lot around" By the calculation above by Manchesterunitedman1 there could possibly be as many as 40 of these programmes around. the 40 is an estimated calculation which i neither agree nor disagree with. The point is that if there are possibly 40 of these around then surely it is not rare. I would consider it difficult and as a programme i would consider it significant because of the air disaster but "rare" no.i stand by my statement 3 "you say it is a must have for senior Manchester United collectors"--yes because of the significance of the game it is a must have 3 "you have made a total contradiction in terms" i am not sure what you mean by that Leslie.What is a total contraction in terms? Is it for instance explaining to the forum members that you are the good guy helping all collectors of all standing out. Giving them free advice and free access to all things Manchester United on flickr Or is it explaining(in this post) how you used your knowledge and expertise to get a programme worth £250 at the time(your valuation) down to a tenner.This programme was initially offered to you for £100 which presumably you thought was good value based on your £250 valuation. i presume that this programme was not on your wanted list as you proudly display on your business card "i pay the highest prices for anything i require" If anybody wants a valuation/opinion on Manchester United items from now on you might wish to ask for a second opinion. What else is a contradiction in terms then? I notice on an earlier post you mentioned you fought for your programmes one at a time unlike others.(presumably a dig at me) well i note again from your business card that "i purchase large Manchester United collections" Is there anything else on the business card that might be a contradiction in terms? Well there is only one thing in bold capitals on the business card that i can see which is "LESLIE MILLMAN-THE FOREMOST MANCHESTER UNITED COLLECTOR"-fact or fiction.I think that this is one for another day maybe

The total contradicion in terms is for you to say that there are a lot about, it is not rare but SOME senior collectors would go against each other to out bid and end up paying £6k it is as rare as hens teeth!
As for the other attempt to show me in a poor light-READ what I wrote, I stated quite clearly that the incident took place 36 years ago not 36 hours ago. My repuation for offering high prices and a fair trading is known throught the hobby and is as good as many others, and if anyone wishes to ask me for a price for anything they have then they can obtain second or twenty second opions if they wish I have no divine right to buy everything or anything. 25% off my total collection only is on Flickr for anyone to see and has been for years-if anyone has a question i answer it, if anyone ask for any assistance i give it, if anyone asks me to give them a price i do that as well and only this week a Forum member offered me an item from a United Tour-he told me what he wanted-I made a counter offer and it was accepted, conversely i have tried to buy items from other forum members and have not done so-swings and roundabouts-that is how the hobby works. I think I have answered the questions that you have posed and feel there is no further need to continue such a conversation, if any other member wishes to come in on the subject of the programme in question that Phil first posed then it is an open debate, if you feel you need to continue the conversation towards me persionally then you have my contact details.

[holtie96]

I can vouch for the above, well said.

[treble99]

i am not going any further down this road.
Leslie.i have no need to contact you over anything.
You collect your way and leave me to collect my way.

This thread started with a statement from nozer making an honest point about a programme selling for a significant amount of money.
Later on nozer pointed out this was alledgedly one of only 5 in circulation(as per the selling pitch in the catalogue).

i gave an opinion that this was not that rare.
As you believe there is possibly 40 of these in circulation i think you backed my point.

40 is not a rare number as i don't believe that there are 10 copies of the Edwardian Cup finals,as an example,and they only make this sort of money.

There are not 40 Manchester United v Everton postponed's and they only sell for half what the Wolves postponed sells for.
The point i was making and am still trying to make is that it is not the rarity of the programme but the significance of the Munich Air disaster which dictates the value of this programme.

This is a forum and as such you are entitled to your opinion.
You quite rightly feel free to exercise your opinion which i obviously have no problem with.
It is the bloody undertones and sniping which get my goat and gets me wound up.

I have nothing but admiration about your collection and your knowledge of the hobby.
As you know ,and i think most of this forum knows ,we both have very significant collections which we have accumulated in different ways over many years.
We have different styles in flushing things out.

There are clearly people who are happy to give you total priority on anything they have to sell.
That is their choice.It does not affect me.

Stop chipping and leave me alone and i will leave you alone.
If you are "The Foremost Manchester United Collector" then i am happy with that as well.