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Scottish Independence
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Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes
44%
 44%  [ 11 ]
No
56%
 56%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 25

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Drvonshineck



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 525
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:26 pm 
Post subject: Scottish Independence
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I have yet to find one reason to vote no.

Can someone even attempt to give me one?

Just to get the ball rolling I will give a few reasons as I see it to vote yes.

No more Tory governments!

Living in a democracy i.e if you vote for a party there is at least a chance they will be elected.

Decentralisation, how can remote governance work? London is a different world from Glasgow, as such policy needs to be different.

Find below a link to order a copy of "The white paper" which outlines why you should vote yes.

https://scotgov.theapsgroupinscotland.com/


Last edited by Drvonshineck on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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derby1884
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:42 pm 
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I'm undecided, as I said elsewhere - but I don't/can't buy into the "no more Tory government" argument as. let's face it, there is no longer any difference between Labour and Conservative. Blair saw to that.

I live in the bubble economy of Aberdeen where the oil industry rules. The effect of that has been to push property prices up, wages up and, as a result, the inflationary effects have seen the divide between haves and have nots in the city reach a level probably only seen in the likes of Hampstead and Notting Hill.

Tell me what an independent Scotland would do to rectify this nonsensical situation and you'd probably manage to persuade me to vote "yes".

As long as it wasn't simply "we'll hive off oil revenue to the Central belt"....
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:49 pm 
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I have not heard a positive case presented by the No campaign to date, nothing, nada. Just negativity and scaremongering. My top 3 reasons for voting Yes?

1) Scotland gets the Government it votes for, and we stand or fall by our own decisions like all other nations.

2) Scotland invests the vast revenues from its natural resources such as oil and renewal energy in Scotland. Not in nuclear weapons, not in illegal wars. Norway has an oil fund worth £400bn, the UK has an oil fund of £0.

3) Policies decided in Scotland for the benefit Scotland. To use an example, Scotland needs immigration, we need skilled workers from overseas, that will not happen whilst England lurches to the right and seeks to stop immigration and withdraw from the EU.
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:51 pm 
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derby1884 wrote:
Tell me what an independent Scotland would do to rectify this nonsensical situation and you'd probably manage to persuade me to vote "yes".


The problem with that of course is there are millions of questions, and you cannot hope to come up with an answer to them all.

The real question should perhaps be, can you see the situation improving by voting No?
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Drvonshineck



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
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Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:58 pm 
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Scotland has a long traditional of leftism.

In my opinion if independence we would see a great percentage of left minority parties in seats.

Such as Scottish socialists & Scottish greens.

The problem is unequal disturbution of wealth, so higher taxation for the rich would be a decent start, at present Westminster would never sanction that in fact they are doing the reverse.

Scotland has many natural resources which are continually stunted by lack of support/funding because it of no immediate benefit to London and the surrounding areas.
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derby1884
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:59 pm 
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Tynie Topics wrote:


2) Scotland invests the vast revenues from its natural resources such as oil and renewal energy in Scotland. Not in nuclear weapons, not in illegal wars. Norway has an oil fund worth £400bn, the UK has an oil fund of £0.


I read this article recently and was quite shocked.

That would suffice for me - would independence mean a commitment to this?
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Drvonshineck



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:01 am 
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derby1884 wrote:
Tynie Topics wrote:


2) Scotland invests the vast revenues from its natural resources such as oil and renewal energy in Scotland. Not in nuclear weapons, not in illegal wars. Norway has an oil fund worth £400bn, the UK has an oil fund of £0.


I read this article recently and was quite shocked.

That would suffice for me - would independence mean a commitment to this?


Yes!
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:04 am 
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derby1884 wrote:

I read this article recently and was quite shocked.

That would suffice for me - would independence mean a commitment to this?


Yes, there would be an oil fund. Norway set theirs up only in 1990, so £400bn in 24 years is not bad going, and investment in the North Sea is booming (as you can probably tell), good for another 100 years.

Norway currently has the funds to invest in other areas when the oil does begin to run out. We currently don't. Norway has one of the worlds highest standards of living, we have food banks.
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Eck



Joined: 25 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:17 am 
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To be honest ,I think it is up to nationalists to convince the rest of the population to vote yes. If you want change,it is up to you to provide a good reason backed up with a certain amount of proven facts and assurances that would convince us to commit to change. Saying to the don't know's there is no good reason not to vote no,doesn't convince me that it is the right move.As far as ousting the Tories (good as it is) is concerned,you don't think that anyone other than Scotland's elite will take over shafting us do you? Shaun Connery is an example,he wants to come back to live here but he doesn't want to pay tax,he's got a deal with Salmond,put money on it.
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Tynie Topics



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:22 am 
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Eck wrote:
To be honest ,I think it is up to nationalists to convince the rest of the population to vote yes. If you want change,it is up to you to provide a good reason backed up with a certain amount of proven facts and assurances that would convince us to commit to change.


How can you provide proven facts Eck? I'd suggest you get hold of the White Paper and have a read of the areas that concern you. Nobody can provide 100% guarantees, but plans and objectives can be outlined. What will happen if there is a No vote?

Quote:
Saying to the don't know's there is no good reason not to vote no,doesn't convince me that it is the right move.As far as ousting the Tories (good as it is) is concerned,you don't think that anyone other than Scotland's elite will take over shafting us do you? Shaun Connery is an example,he wants to come back to live here but he doesn't want to pay tax,he's got a deal with Salmond,put money on it.


What do you think of the points raised above Eck? do you think Scotland's best interests would be better served by a fully Independent Parliament, or by Westminster?

As for Sean Connery, where did you read that?
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Eck



Joined: 25 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:27 am 
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Tynie Topics wrote:
Eck wrote:
To be honest ,I think it is up to nationalists to convince the rest of the population to vote yes. If you want change,it is up to you to provide a good reason backed up with a certain amount of proven facts and assurances that would convince us to commit to change.


How can you provide proven facts Eck? I'd suggest you get hold of the White Paper and have a read of the areas that concern you. Nobody can provide 100% guarantees, but plans and objectives can be outlined. What will happen if there is a No vote?

Quote:
Saying to the don't know's there is no good reason not to vote no,doesn't convince me that it is the right move.As far as ousting the Tories (good as it is) is concerned,you don't think that anyone other than Scotland's elite will take over shafting us do you? Shaun Connery is an example,he wants to come back to live here but he doesn't want to pay tax,he's got a deal with Salmond,put money on it.


What do you think of the points raised above Eck? do you think Scotland's best interests would be better served by a fully Independent Parliament, or by Westminster?

As for Sean Connery, where did you read that?



I can't remember about SC,but the points raised above,shady,inconclusive,unconvincing.
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derby1884
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:28 am 
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Eck, I want change but I want change for the better, not for the sake of it - and certainly not based on emotive stuff like "no more Tories" because politicians are, more than ever, only in it for what they can get.

For all we loved/loathed the likes of Thatcher/Benn, at least one knew where one stood with them.

And Sean Connery is the biggest bloody hypocrite of the lot!

Arguments such as the oil fund are the sort of sensible, practical measures that will persuade.

Not a tax exile pontificating from the verandah of his Monte Carlo apartment.
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:30 am 
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Eck wrote:
I can't remember about SC,but the points raised above,shady,inconclusive,unconvincing.


Please expand Eck, what is shady and inconclusive about the three points I made, I'm genuinely interested;

1) Scotland gets the Government it votes for, and we stand or fall by our own decisions like all other nations.

2) Scotland invests the vast revenues from its natural resources such as oil and renewal energy in Scotland. Not in nuclear weapons, not in illegal wars. Norway has an oil fund worth £400bn, the UK has an oil fund of £0.

3) Policies decided in Scotland for the benefit Scotland. To use an example, Scotland needs immigration, we need skilled workers from overseas, that will not happen whilst England lurches to the right and seeks to stop immigration and withdraw from the EU.
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:32 am 
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derby1884 wrote:
Eck, I want change but I want change for the better, not for the sake of it - and certainly not based on emotive stuff like "no more Tories" because politicians are, more than ever, only in it for what they can get.

For all we loved/loathed the likes of Thatcher/Benn, at least one knew where one stood with them.

And Sean Connery is the biggest bloody hypocrite of the lot!

Arguments such as the oil fund are the sort of sensible, practical measures that will persuade.

Not a tax exile pontificating from the verandah of his Monte Carlo apartment.


To be fair, I can't recall Sir Sean saying too much about it so far. Only David Bowie......

Another practical example is the fishing industry which has been devastated with the representation at the EU questionable to say the least.

Scotland with a seat at the EU (yes, we will get membership) will have a voice in negotiations such as these when it comes to quotas, whereas at the moment only an UK Minister represents Scotland (and the rest of the UK), no Scottish MSP is allowed to attend.

Scotland has some of the largest fishing grounds in Europe, but no direct voice at the EU.
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Last edited by Tynie Topics on Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Drvonshineck



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 525
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:36 am 
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Eck, I have added a link to order a copy of the white paper.

Unforunately all points with regards to the debate are uncertain but not inconclusive.

Another point in response to Scotland become a failed state after independence in recent history no country that has become independent from a larger state has ever had such a terrible time making their own decisions that they have rejoined the state they left.

Would you back in with your parents now that you have flown the nest?

Independence is liberating.
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Eck



Joined: 25 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:37 am 
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Tynie,i'm not going to expand because I already said that you have to turn my vote into a yes,I don't have to defend my corner. I am not against independence but I won't be bullied into it by racists and flag wavers (i'm not referring to anyone in particular) . I refuse to debate an issue that i'm not sure about,i'm prepared only to listen to what people have to say and if the ayes can't convince me,I will vote for no to change.
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Tynie Topics



Joined: 26 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:41 am 
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Eck wrote:
Tynie,i'm not going to expand because I already said that you have to turn my vote into a yes,I don't have to defend my corner. I am not against independence but I won't be bullied into it by racists and flag wavers (i'm not referring to anyone in particular) . I refuse to debate an issue that i'm not sure about,i'm prepared only to listen to what people have to say and if the ayes can't convince me,I will vote for no to change.


Hang on Eck, you have to say what it is that is making you vote No in order to actually give anyone a chance to debate, you're avoiding the issue! You said my points were shady and inconclusive, tell me why you think that? It's a reasonable request in any debate otherwise there is no debate!

Racists? really? Eck think about it, c'mon.........
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Drvonshineck



Joined: 24 Dec 2011
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Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:43 am 
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Eck that is classic conservatism.

Change is essential, history has proved that the union is not in Scotland's interest.

Order that book and read it, if you don't then as you have said yourself your not informed enough, so why vote at all?

The issue that troubles me most is if people chose not to inform themselves then vote no because of lack of understanding.


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derby1884
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:43 am 
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Tynie Topics wrote:

3) Policies decided in Scotland for the benefit Scotland. To use an example, Scotland needs immigration, we need skilled workers from overseas, that will not happen whilst England lurches to the right and seeks to stop immigration and withdraw from the EU.


Sorry to harp on about the Aberdeen economy but, as Scotland's third largest city, there are a lot of votes here....and there is a growing discontent about the effect that immigration (much of it temporary) has had on our situation.

It;s almost the reverse of most places in that the vast amount of skilled persons arriving have created a distinct divide between "locals" and new arrivals.

For sure, plenty money in the oil, but how do you propose that benefits the indigent Scottish population?

The plethora of pawnbrokers on Union Street now (9 at the last count) suggests all is not well.

Do we divert funds to educate our young to compete for these jobs up here? Would an independent Scotland be far-sighted enough to do that? Or would it be content with the status quo and the resulting revenue from the oil industry regardless of who generated it?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:53 am 
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derby1884 wrote:
Sorry to harp on about the Aberdeen economy but, as Scotland's third largest city, there are a lot of votes here....and there is a growing discontent about the effect that immigration (much of it temporary) has had on our situation.

It;s almost the reverse of most places in that the vast amount of skilled persons arriving have created a distinct divide between "locals" and new arrivals.

For sure, plenty money in the oil, but how do you propose that benefits the indigent Scottish population?

The plethora of pawnbrokers on Union Street now (9 at the last count) suggests all is not well.

Do we divert funds to educate our young to compete for these jobs up here? Would an independent Scotland be far-sighted enough to do that? Or would it be content with the status quo and the resulting revenue from the oil industry regardless of who generated it?


I very much doubt anyone could answer that, nobody has all the answers and you said yourself, it's a very Aberdeen specific issue.

But there is great inequality throughout the UK of which Scotland is perhaps a glaring example, a nation that produces more oil than Abu Dhabi and Dubai combined yet has food banks and an unacceptably high poverty rate.

My position it is that an Independent Scotland has a greater chance of addressing this inequality than being part of the Union which has failed to do so for generations.

An Independent Scotland will not be the a land of milk and honey, it will require a lot of hard work to create a better life for everyone, but your vote will have more impact than it does at present, and as a man in the street, what more can you ask for?
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