Man City v Hibs 18/11/57

[mancitymark]

Wanted
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[BAZZABAGGIES]

I have one for sale.. You can have it for £2 +







£35 Postage

[Pagiemcfc]

BAZZABAGGIES wrote:

I have one for sale.. You can have it for £2 + £35 Postage

[kenred]

This is a particularly rare item I believe.I actually attended the match on a very cold November evening.The attendance wasnt very high.
The programme in good condition would probably bring around £10+ Try Almondvale programmes who I believe isa Hibs fan!

[kenred]

Phil Noble is a dedicated seller of Manchester City programmes.Try his website ,he sell lots of rare city programmes.

[kenred]

Almondvale list the required Programme and as I said ,its priced @ £10!

[mancitymark]

Thanks Ken, Will take a look and Phil has a wealth of knowledge when it come's to City programmes and is always very helpful.
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[kcs]

Can you post Phil's website address on here please - would like to have a nose
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[Pagiemcfc]

kcs wrote:

Can you post Phil's website address on here please - would like to have a nose

www.mancityprogrammes.co.uk

[treble99]

This is clearly volume 2 of the mancitymark v the dealers.
To me it shows everything that is good and bad about the hobby and this site in general.
From Mark's point of view he is collecting at a level that suits him financially and mentally.
I suspect that he is not at a level whereby he can call himself an experienced collector but is deep enough in to be past the "i'm new here etc"
He is no longer in a position where the bedroom bandits can give him the "pm sent" trying to unload the unsellable fodder for a quid plus postage.
We are all aware that this forum is awash with such people and chancers.
He is still flexible enough to find his missing items from a combination of places,of which ebay is the most obvious.
If he waits a relatively short period of time i suspect all his missing 1956/57'a will turn up on ebay for a couple of quid.
If he gets bored or excited then he can spend over a fiver now.
That is his choice and must be respected.
The way he chooses to advertise for his wants and his way of dealing with responses has clearly pissed a few dealers off who now apparently won't deal with him again or take the wazz out of him or both.
That is of course their choice but as Mark gets deeper into his collecting,if indeed he chooses to do so,then they are missing out on a selling opportunity of the rarer items when he will have to pay up as all serious collectors,including me,have done.
Remember just as dealers choose not to deal with him,i believe he will now have made a choice not to deal with them.
Dealers do not have the right to put an inflated price on anything they attempt to sell then knock a bit off and expect to sell it because they have wives kids etc who are expensive to keep.
Believe me i have a wife who tries to waste the programme money on food and clothes for the kids but i have her under control.
Some of the prices asked by dealers are 6 years out of date from the good old days and as they have probably had the stock that long anyway that in itself should tell them something
I respect most and probably all of the old established dealers.
I consider many of them friends but when i look at the percentage call on the Manchester City programmes i consider it is a lot.
Forget the relatively small change involved.Look at the percentage.
Mark is trying to complete a season that he has been buying for £1/2 an item.
He thinks he can finish it quickly and is probably prepared to offer/pay £15 for the 6.
He is offered them for £36 and declines.
As a percentage call that's more than double the current perceived,and probably correct market value.
Now move this on.
Examle 1-There is a dealer who offers programmes permanently on ebay.
All his high class items are offered at such high prices that other dealers and top end collectors know there is an extra nought on the end of the true current price.
He is either looking for mugs,is dilussional or just doesn't care.
It doesn't help the hobby even if it doesn't harm it too much.

Example 2
I recently attended a programme fair where i spied a programme on offer for £5000 with a well know dealer.
I love this dealer and won't name him.
The way he runs his business is his business alone and i am not even offended.It is not my business.
The only reason i use this as an example is that it is fresh in my mind.There are plenty of other examples.
I hold this up as an example only.I see it all the time.
This obviously rare programme(i have no dispute with that fact) intrigued me enough to dig further.
I checked my extensive records and discovered the following
I have 7 notes of it appearing in the last 12 years and 3 are the same programme so it is rare
It fetched the following
£525 at a national auction house in 2000
Offered privately to me and several others in March 2004 for £1200 and was unsold
The above seller then dropped the price in June 2004 for offers over £750 and was still unsold
It was then offered on ebay by this seller in September 2004 starting at £600 and still didn't sell.
Another copy was offered at auction in September 2008 and hammered at £520 which with commission is £580 ish.
A copy was offered on a dealers catalogue for £625 for a straight sale in 2009 and finally a copy was sold at an auction house in February 2012 and hammered at £1500 plus the bits so approximately £1800ish
I suspect that this price was achieved because it had not been seen for 3 years.
I believe,and i may be wrong that the one of offer for £5000 is the last one.
In other words a dealer has outbid the collectors at a wqell known auction house and at £5000 now wants to make a percentage profit not unrivalled to the City programmes.
I have bored you all but in my opinion dealers need to learn when they might be wrong in the pricing just as collectors need to know when to give the dealers the courtesy of a reply however if a no thanks gets the sort of reaction Mark got i am not surprised if he doesn't respond.
Finally and not least i have to applaud kenred for his research and spot on advice to Mark which i hope he appreciates.
We could all do with helping each other more.
Collectors are significantly thinner on the ground than they used to be and so is cash.
There are more bedroom bandits that ever preying on newbies and killing the hobby with overpricing on fodder items that should be a quid a boxload.

[DannyRoberts]

An excellent post by treble99

Quote:

Examle 1-There is a dealer who offers programmes permanently on ebay. All his high class items are offered at such high prices that other dealers and top end collectors know there is an extra nought on the end of the true current price. He is either looking for mugs,is dilussional or just doesn't care. It doesn't help the hobby even if it doesn't harm it too much. Example 2 I recently attended a programme fair where i spied a programme on offer for £5000 with a well know dealer. I love this dealer and won't name him.

I think most of us know the dealer in example 1 above.

The advantage of having his items at high prices on eBay means that when you advertise the one you have it usually reaches a realistic level and both buyer and seller are pleased - the seller has got a decent price and the buyer thinks he has got a bargain because there is a similar one advertised at more than double or treble the price !!!

The disadvantage is when someone has a high quality collection for sale and they have been exposed to this dealer's website, eBay listings or catalogue, whereby they think that their items are worth far more than in reality - it makes for very strained negotiations !!!

I also saw the £5000 programme that the dealer in example 2 had on display at the London Fair at the beginning of the month.

Obviously, under normal circumstances, it really should not sell anywhere near that price. However, with the two clubs concerned, all it takes is for one well-heeled collector of either club to stump up and the dealer will be a very happy man.

[Senior82]

Very well said treble99

[kcs]

Pagiemcfc wrote:

kcs wrote: Can you post Phil's website address on here please - would like to have a nose www.mancityprogrammes.co.uk

Cheers - a few hours of browsing now penned in
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[kcs]

Also agree with comments by Treble99, think this sums up many people's opinions and worded very politely indeed.

For the record I have done deals with Mark before and everything was fine and he replied straight away... we met at a programme fair to conclude the deal. Happy Days
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[mancitymark]

City v Hibs Obtained for the pricely sum of £1.96

Also I'm pleased to announce I’ve almost managed to complete the City 56/57 home season after shopping around on EBay - Spent a grand total of £21.13 on 11 different homes which is quite a difference to the out of date dealers on here offering prices of yesteryear just to make that couple of quid more and still rather hang onto there clutter than strike a deal that would suit everyone best

Good luck lads

PS - If anyone has any City home or away from the 50’s that they would be interested in selling as a job lot then please feel free to contact via PM
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[martino]

mancitymark wrote:

City v Hibs Obtained for the pricely sum of £1.96 Also I'm pleased to announce I’ve almost managed to complete the City 56/57 home season after shopping around on EBay - Spent a grand total of £21.13 on 11 different homes which is quite a difference to the out of date dealers on here offering prices of yesteryear just to make that couple of quid more and still rather hang onto there clutter than strike a deal that would suit everyone best Good luck lads PS - If anyone has any City home or away from the 50’s that they would be interested in selling as a job lot then please feel free to contact via PM

Well done Mark for sticking to the plan.

The problem is some sellers look at dealer's lists and see a programme for £10 and they believe that it what it is worth. If the dealer has not sold it for £10 then it is obviously worth less.

This all goes back to my point in another post that some dealers must be sitting on thousands of pounds worth of unsold stock which they will probably not shift at the price they are asking.

Martin

[efcbluenose]

first up what a wonderfull dipolmatic response there from trebble he's said everything in a nutshell and summed it up perfectly from both views.fantastic words and wisdom.well said my friend,and finally well done mark for sticking to your plan fella and nailing those wants of your wants list.i wish i could do it the way you do it.fair play mate.

[efcbluenose]

also i noted someone mentioned brain almond at almondvale programmes? i've found that gentleman in question in question and his site a wonderfull refresshing change to over priced items that i am after.i will be going up on train to see brian when ive got my next week off and taking a few hundred quid up with me to get the stuff i need.why is it that a scottish dealer is cheaper on his english stuff to deal with than an english dealer is? i know stupid question like but its the way with almondvale programmes in particular.quality man i've spoken on the phone to brian top man i've agreed a deal and price with him in principle and i will go up to him and forfill that deal with him very soon.in 3 weeks time infact