early cup final tickets for sale

[sydenham hill]

take a look at sportingold`s next sale 1/4/11, on offer cup final tickets for the 1901,1906,1908 and 1913 f a cup finals, plus semi-final tickets for 1901 spurs v wba, 1902 derby co v sheff utd and 1904 man city v the wednesday, should be a lot of interest in these you would think

[RobertD]

has anyone made any enquires on the history/background of these tickets.
I can't seem to find a online catalogue for sportingold just a list on their site.

[RobertD]

have been doing a bit of digging around and have managed to get some information on how these tickets were sourced.

They did belong to a very reputable and trusted seller in South West London, she sold a quite a few pink final tickets and green semi stubs to a couple from Berwick/Scotland, it is probably them that have given the ticket to Sportingold.
I emailed her to try to get a bit more detail on the history of some of these tickets and recieved the following bit of information.

The 1904 semi belonged to a relative of a Bolton player called Yenson.
The 1906 ticket belonged to the daughter of a player called Balmer.

[BertD]

RobertD wrote:

have been doing a bit of digging around and have managed to get some information on how these tickets were sourced

I heard from a usually reputable source on Saturday that there are up to 12 of each of the pink tickets available, and that "more can be made available". Not only that, but enquiries from several different people have resulted in each being given a different mobile phone number. Apparently a paper expert who examined one of the tickets said it's bogus. I was told Chris at Sportingold was informed of the above, but he must be confident as the sale went ahead. As I've said, this is a second-hand story, I only suggest that anyone spending the sort of money these go for should have them professionally checked before sticking them in the safe ...
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[RobertD]

Please be more careful before talking such lies that could cause other peoples issues.

The person that originaly sold those tickets is disabled and cannot speak on a phone so only talks via email. Also the person is female and you did not mention that in your quote from your source. So its probably two different collections.

[Tynie Topics]

RobertD wrote:

Please be more careful before talking such lies that could cause other peoples issues.

Looks to me that Bert is passing on some information he has been told and advising people to have the tickets checked out before parting with large sums of money.

It doesn’t look as thought he is “talking lies”
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[RobertD]

yes I realise he is trying to be helpfull but hes failed to mention several key facts.

The tickets sold by Sportingold came from a very good source, while the others he is mentioning are not from the same lady.

These are key facts because this thread was about the sportingold auction and spreading gossip and heresay around.

I think its important to specify which source of tickets is dodgy rather poo poo the reputation of a very good auction house and a disabled lady who has done no harm to you.

[Tynie Topics]

I wouldn’t know whether there is one source, two sources or umpteen sources of these rare tickets or whether one source is more reputable than the other, but if there is even a small possibility of fakes circulating around on the marketplace, then wouldn’t you agree that it’s better to warn fellow collectors rather than keeping the information to yourself for fear of being labelled a liar? Which in itself is a rather strong accusation to make.
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[RobertD]

Tynie Topics wrote:

I wouldn’t know whether there is one source, two sources or umpteen sources of these rare tickets or whether one source is more reputable than the other, but if there is even a small possibility of fakes circulating around on the marketplace, then wouldn’t you agree that it’s better to warn fellow collectors rather than keeping the information to yourself for fear of being labelled a liar? Which in itself is a rather strong accusation to make.

If you and bert don't know whats going on then please leave it to professionals like Sportingold, I have been contacted by another member on here regarding two 1911 tickets, its more than possible that the economical situation we find ourselves in is making more people sell than before. Also I think its important to state the facts once again that both Sportingold and the disabled lady are totally independant from any other sellers that Burt has mentioned, if I was Chris Williams I would have my legal team look into these comments. Its completely out of order and unjust

[RobertD]

Tynie Topics wrote:

I wouldn’t know whether there is one source, two sources or umpteen sources of these rare tickets or whether one source is more reputable than the other, but if there is even a small possibility of fakes circulating around on the marketplace, then wouldn’t you agree that it’s better to warn fellow collectors rather than keeping the information to yourself for fear of being labelled a liar? Which in itself is a rather strong accusation to make.

fakes have been going around for years and years in the 1980s, people would photocopy both sides then stick the paper together, but only a buffon would not be able to tell, two things to check are sharpnish of letters, if its a scan then the letters will blur slightly, also the paper/card will feel rough/withered. Most people who has that sort of spare cash will be on the ball enough to know, remember the type of printing used in those days was very good.

[Tynie Topics]

Legal team? What exactly is your connection to these tickets and this auction/seller?

If there is a possibility that there are fakes around, collectors should be made aware and then it us upto the potential purchaser to check into it further. You would rather people kept this information to themselves and therefore heighten the possibility of someone being stung.

IF there are fakes around, and it’s only an if (take note) then these could be offered for sale via a number of different avenues as you have illustrated, so collectors of these tickets need to be aware.

Anyway I'll leave you to it, Bert is more than capable of defending himself against accusations of being a liar, which I note you have not retracted.
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[RobertD]

[quote="Tynie Topics"]Legal team? What exactly is your connection to these tickets and this auction/seller?quote]

no connection but for some reason a couple of people have contacted me for advice, I tell them to base their decison on facts about any tickets they buy, look and feel, history of ticket, how it came to be in the ownership of the seller,

Fakes have been around since the begining of time, but when informing other people we all have a moral responsibility to ensure that the facts are put across in a well contructed manner, Burt did not do this, anyone with less knowledge of whats going on here would assume that Burt was talking about the tickets sold by Sportingold but he was probably talking about a different seller. These are key facts.

[Tynie Topics]

RobertD wrote:

Fakes have been around since the begining of time, but when informing other people we all have a moral responsibility to ensure that the facts are put across in a well contructed manner, Burt did not do this, anyone with less knowledge of whats going on here would assume that Burt was talking about the tickets sold by Sportingold but he was probably talking about a different seller. These are key facts.

Further key facts are that even Auction houses in all manner of specialities have been duped by fakes, and in this particular case you now admit that there are fakes of these tickets in circulation.

This is something that collectors should be aware of without fear of being called a liar or it being insinuated that they are slandering people. This hobby is far too secretive as it is. Cheerio.
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[goonerboy]

Certainly an interesting thread.

Firstly re the auction house activities. One of the clear terms and conditions is that the buyer has to satisfy his/herself about the item to be purchased. So unless Chris or any auctioneer has significant reason to believe the tickets are fake then they will put them up for auction because they are acting as a service to the seller. So if there are suggestions that fakes are floating around and that is shared amongst collectors that does not mean these items are fakes but simply re-emphasising the caveat emptor philosophy that is the basis of all auctions.

Regards the tickets that actually went for sale in the Sportingold auction I am curious to know how it has become known as to who is the seller let alone her email address. The auction house should certainly not be revealing such information.

[RobertD]

goonerboy wrote:

Certainly an interesting thread. Firstly re the auction house activities. One of the clear terms and conditions is that the buyer has to satisfy his/herself about the item to be purchased. So unless Chris or any auctioneer has significant reason to believe the tickets are fake then they will put them up for auction because they are acting as a service to the seller. So if there are suggestions that fakes are floating around and that is shared amongst collectors that does not mean these items are fakes but simply re-emphasising the caveat emptor philosophy that is the basis of all auctions. Regards the tickets that actually went for sale in the Sportingold auction I am curious to know how it has become known as to who is the seller let alone her email address. The auction house should certainly not be revealing such information.

Great post, maybe its time for Burt to name his source but I suspect it will be his milkmans wifes best friends cousin told me that their brother in law had some information.

The auction did not reveal any information, if you keep your ears peeled and look around for information, put 2+2 together.

[BertD]

RobertD wrote:

Fakes have been around since the begining of time, but when informing other people we all have a moral responsibility to ensure that the facts are put across in a well contructed manner, Burt did not do this, anyone with less knowledge of whats going on here would assume that Burt was talking about the tickets sold by Sportingold but he was probably talking about a different seller. These are key facts.

BertD wrote:

I was told Chris at Sportingold was informed of the above, but he must be confident as the sale went ahead.

I think this makes clear that Chris is happy that the tickets sold at Sportingold last week were not bogus. I never suggested, nor meant to imply otherwise, exactly the opposite in fact, only that there are a number of these tickets currently on the market that are suspect. And ...

BertD wrote:

As I've said, this is a second-hand story, I only suggest that anyone spending the sort of money these go for should have them professionally checked before sticking them in the safe ...

Which was my point.

A well known phrase on another board I frequent is "Read what I've written, not what you think I've written".
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Newest programme wanted:
11-08-1976 Wycombe Wanderers v Wimbledon (Friendly)

[goonerboy]

Without wanting to perpetuate the debate, I note RobertD states "The auction did not reveal any information, if you keep your ears peeled and look around for information, put 2+2 together.".

Bearing in mind there was a bit of a moral highground being taken about "facts" earlier in the thread I would suggest that putting 2+2 together is not "factual" but supposition. So if we want a fact based discussion fine but if people don't actually have the facts then they should be more tolerant about others expressing their views.

[BertD]

RobertD wrote:

goonerboy wrote: Certainly an interesting thread. Firstly re the auction house activities. One of the clear terms and conditions is that the buyer has to satisfy his/herself about the item to be purchased. So unless Chris or any auctioneer has significant reason to believe the tickets are fake then they will put them up for auction because they are acting as a service to the seller. So if there are suggestions that fakes are floating around and that is shared amongst collectors that does not mean these items are fakes but simply re-emphasising the caveat emptor philosophy that is the basis of all auctions. Regards the tickets that actually went for sale in the Sportingold auction I am curious to know how it has become known as to who is the seller let alone her email address. The auction house should certainly not be revealing such information. Great post, maybe its time for Burt to name his source but I suspect it will be his milkmans wifes best friends cousin told me that their brother in law had some information. The auction did not reveal any information, if you keep your ears peeled and look around for information, put 2+2 together.

Great post? It's hardly agreeing with your diatribe!

Robert (See how I spelt your name correctly? Easy, isn't it?), you have absolutely minimal knowledge of what I know and who I know, so don't belittle yourself by suggesting I'm just spreading tittle-tattle.

If you know what you're talking about, and you're in the game, you'd know there are suspect copies of these tickets around. Having come into that information myself, from a reliable source, I thought I'd let others on here know. Obviously, in retrospect, and with deference to your superiority, I should have just shut up and let some poor mug potentially waste a few grand on a piece of worthless paper.

My source is in direct contact with others who have been offered tickets by the same person using different mobile numbers, and is in contact with someone who had one of the tickets tested, and proved fake. He was also at the auction last week. Put your 2+2 together and see what you come up with there ...

For the sake of clarity, I repeat that I have no reason to believe that Chris / Sportingold did not take every possible precaution before selling those tickets last week (especially as he was made aware of the existence of these fakes), or that the fake tickets currently in circulation come from the same source as those in the auction. I hope that's easy enough for you to comprehend.
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Newest programme wanted:
11-08-1976 Wycombe Wanderers v Wimbledon (Friendly)

[sportingold]

Speaking as the owner of Sportingold, all this speculation re the tickets sold last Friday has been very informative with various contributors to the debate somehow stating what I did or did not know. For the sake of clarity let me confirm the situation. First of all we are an auction house and we take pride in our reputation. We do not divulge the identity of our vendors and most contributors have got this identity wrong.
Until early last week we had no reason to have any doubts about these tickets, they were entered by a vendor who has been a customer for a good number of years and he was convinced that they were genuine.
I was then telephoned by a Southern based dealer who said that one of his friends had doubts about these tickets although his friend had not physically seen any of the tickets that we were selling.
Nevertheless I decided to visit an "expert" in Kent and took the tickets with me. This chap examined the tickets and stated that he was not happy with them although none of the reasons given was definitive. Furthermore this expert refused to put his name to a document stating that they were fake.
This created a problem, our vendor who has a good number more of these tickets in his collection has spent a large sum of money when buying these tickets. If I then decided to pull them out of the auction, just a few days prior to the auction, I am effectively confirming that they are fake without having any proof othet than remarks made by people who never had any intention of buying them and who have not been in contact with us at any stage, Perhaps contributors to this debate could at least have the decency to contact us before lauching into speculation as to what we know and what we have said. However after contact with the vendor who was devastated to hear of our concern, we decided to let the sale go ahead for the following reason. We do not pay vendors until a few weeks after the auction, the vendor is going to supply us with a couple more of the tickets which we are hoping to get tested by a professional, respected body whose decision would be respected by most people. Should their opinion be that they are fake, we would then contact all buyers , inform them of this and of course offer a full refund. The auction went ahead, nobody raised any doubts at the auction with me re the tickets and of course we had full colour photos of each ticket in our catalogue. Some collectors asked us for scans with which we obliged and once again nobody raised any doubts. We are now waiting for these tickets to arrive and we are searching for a relevant body to test them, This is not as easy as it sounds, the British Museum has suggested that we contact the British Library and this we will do although if any of your members know of any other professional bodies who undertake this work, we would be obliged for the information. The real problem or so we understand is that two different suppliers have been selling these tickets originally, quite frankly this is not our concern, our only concerns are for the genuineness or otherwise of what we are selling and hence for our vendors and our purchasers.Idle tittle tattle by people who are making remarks about us as an auction house are both unjustified and if lies are spread about us , we will not hesitate to take legal action. We are not trying to bully anyone or act the heavy mob, but we are concerned about our reputation and we do not see what other action we can take. In a nutshell we do not know for sure one way or the other about these tickets but we are striving to find out. Meanwhile a lot of money both for our vendor, our purchasers and if we are honest, ourselves is at stake plus of course monies paid out by other collectors. So far two "experts" have said that they are not happy with these tickets and both have not put this in writing with their name attached and indeed one of these experts has not even seen any of the tickets in our sale. All bar one of the tickets sold so we assume that these buyers are satisfied about the tickets, however it is our role to protect them as well and as stated above we will contact all purchasers once we have clear evidence and offer refunds if this is required.
All interested parties are openly invited to contact me during working hours on 07785 290358 or by email at [email protected] if they wish to do so, but please do not openly speculate about what we knew or did etc when I am the only person who can vouch for this. Chris Williams Sportingold Ltd quote="BertD"]

RobertD wrote:

goonerboy wrote: Certainly an interesting thread. Firstly re the auction house activities. One of the clear terms and conditions is that the buyer has to satisfy his/herself about the item to be purchased. So unless Chris or any auctioneer has significant reason to believe the tickets are fake then they will put them up for auction because they are acting as a service to the seller. So if there are suggestions that fakes are floating around and that is shared amongst collectors that does not mean these items are fakes but simply re-emphasising the caveat emptor philosophy that is the basis of all auctions. Regards the tickets that actually went for sale in the Sportingold auction I am curious to know how it has become known as to who is the seller let alone her email address. The auction house should certainly not be revealing such information. Great post, maybe its time for Burt to name his source but I suspect it will be his milkmans wifes best friends cousin told me that their brother in law had some information. The auction did not reveal any information, if you keep your ears peeled and look around for information, put 2+2 together.

Great post? It's hardly agreeing with your diatribe!

Robert (See how I spelt your name correctly? Easy, isn't it?), you have absolutely minimal knowledge of what I know and who I know, so don't belittle yourself by suggesting I'm just spreading tittle-tattle.

If you know what you're talking about, and you're in the game, you'd know there are suspect copies of these tickets around. Having come into that information myself, from a reliable source, I thought I'd let others on here know. Obviously, in retrospect, and with deference to your superiority, I should have just shut up and let some poor mug potentially waste a few grand on a piece of worthless paper.

My source is in direct contact with others who have been offered tickets by the same person using different mobile numbers, and is in contact with someone who had one of the tickets tested, and proved fake. He was also at the auction last week. Put your 2+2 together and see what you come up with there ...

For the sake of clarity, I repeat that I have no reason to believe that Chris / Sportingold did not take every possible precaution before selling those tickets last week (especially as he was made aware of the existence of these fakes), or that the fake tickets currently in circulation come from the same source as those in the auction. I hope that's easy enough for you to comprehend.[/quote]

[Tynie Topics]

sportingold wrote:

Idle tittle tattle by people who are making remarks about us as an auction house are both unjustified and if lies are spread about us , we will not hesitate to take legal action. We are not trying to bully anyone or act the heavy mob, but we are concerned about our reputation and we do not see what other action we can take.

Interesting stuff (your whole post), however I cannot see anyone on here spreading lies or engaging in tittle tattle that damages your reputation, although to be fair you may not be referring directly to this thread.

It does however seem that in this case, 2+2 does indeed equal 5........
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