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Women in Football both on & off the field-your view?
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:32 pm 
Post subject: Women in Football both on & off the field-your view?
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I am not making a comment personally at this moment about this just asking for everyone else's opinions.

Women in football is nothing new, they have been playing for over a 100 years, but in very recent years that has changed as well as now Ladies running the line and starting to referee, Ladies working for the TV companies giving reports on the games as well as joining their Male counterparts on TV as Pundits.

Some may say the Barometer has swung dramatically from very little to now too much with Women's involvement in football at all these different levels.

Is it a taboo subject that most men have no interest/are fed up seeing it all? do the majority of men welcome it?-anyone care to give their view?.

Dick Kerr's Ladies team v Bath Ladies-played at Manchester United's Old Trafford in 1920-1921 Season by Leslie Millman, on Flickr
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BAZZERFOX42



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:01 pm 
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I welcome inclusivity, and great to see the women's game progress. Shame you did not ask for a women's perspective as well.
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:09 pm 
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BAZZERFOX42 wrote:
I welcome inclusivity, and great to see the women's game progress. Shame you did not ask for a women's perspective as well.


I am unaware of any female collectors on this Forum other than an odd dealer or two and it occurred to me that if there indeed are any girls, then their voices will be surely heard, this is a forum so everyone is welcome to comment provided it is not offensive to anyone no matter what the topics are.

If there are a female set of voices, then please let's hear you.......
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Bokbag



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:52 pm 
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“Some may say the Barometer has swung dramatically from very little to now too much with Women's involvement in football at all these different levels”.

If anyone genuinely feel that this sentence reflects their views I suggest they take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and give their head a wobble. Those views belong in the 1930s

Women…talking about and playing football…being pundits…oh the humanity!!

I am 34, growing up in Prudhoe there was no girls team at all. Now they have it all the way to 16. My daughter has been playing/training in Jarrow since 4 and loves it. What a shame that she might be frowned upon by some “men” for playing the wonderful game.
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:24 am 
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Bokbag wrote:
“Some may say the Barometer has swung dramatically from very little to now too much with Women's involvement in football at all these different levels”.

If anyone genuinely feel that this sentence reflects their views I suggest they take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and give their head a wobble. Those views belong in the 1930s

Women…talking about and playing football…being pundits…oh the humanity!!

I am 34, growing up in Prudhoe there was no girls team at all. Now they have it all the way to 16. My daughter has been playing/training in Jarrow since 4 and loves it. What a shame that she might be frowned upon by some “men” for playing the wonderful game.


Like in everything there will always be opposing views and your response is to stimulate conversation. My own view is Neutral in this debate.
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sharrowblade
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:03 pm 
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As a Junior coach I thinks its terrific that girls are involved in playing football. In the grand scheme of things the more participation by both sexes the better for all concerned.

We pride ourselves on the basis that its a game for everyone.

However, there's no escaping the majority of the traditional male audience is still of the opinion that women's football is completely rubbish. Those who have daughters play it understandably will probably hold a different opinion and understandably so.

As Millie Bright the England defender recently said 'A major problem is that men tend to compare the men's game to theirs. That's not really a good thing. The women's game is what it is'

As referenced by Leslie he asks has the 'barometer swung too much?'

Well...The constant Media bulling it up and promotion, only exasperates the subject and the reality with regards to the traditional Male audience who consider the product being pushed in their direction as inferior in every way.

England's recent 20-0 victory over Latvia (shot count 67-0) and many other similar scores do not do the women's game any favours at all.

The Equal pay Issue, the over emphasis on the skill level, the attempts to alter history (Marta becoming the World Cup's all time leading Goalscorer overtaking Miroslav Klose), the reporting of new signings with headline breaking news only to discover its some lass who's gone from Port Vale Ladies to Manchester United, the agenda by the BBC where its now second in coverage to the premier League. The EFL relegated to a small column somewhere near the bottom of the page.

These traits do not court favour with the Majority of the male football audience (rightly or wrongly) already heavily prejudiced in their judgement

Outdated, ignorant and ill informed, (and in truth I've heard some frankly embarrassing and unwarranted comments from male friends about the women's game) or is it just simply the traditional male audience 'being realistic'?

Either way, at the moment,...that's just the way it is.
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pompeypete
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:36 pm 
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Fratton park.....

Hasn,t changed much
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:54 pm 
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sharrowblade wrote:
As a Junior coach I thinks its terrific that girls are involved in playing football. In the grand scheme of things the more participation by both sexes the better for all concerned.

We pride ourselves on the basis that its a game for everyone.

However, there's no escaping the majority of the traditional male audience is still of the opinion that women's football is completely rubbish. Those who have daughters play it understandably will probably hold a different opinion and understandably so.

As Millie Bright the England defender recently said 'A major problem is that men tend to compare the men's game to theirs. That's not really a good thing. The women's game is what it is'

As referenced by Leslie he asks has the 'barometer swung too much?'

Well...The constant Media bulling it up and promotion, only exasperates the subject and the reality with regards to the traditional Male audience who consider the product being pushed in their direction as inferior in every way.

England's recent 20-0 victory over Latvia (shot count 67-0) and many other similar scores do not do the women's game any favours at all.

The Equal pay Issue, the over emphasis on the skill level, the attempts to alter history (Marta becoming the World Cup's all time leading Goalscorer overtaking Miroslav Klose), the reporting of new signings with headline breaking news only to discover its some lass who's gone from Port Vale Ladies to Manchester United, the agenda by the BBC where its now second in coverage to the premier League. The EFL relegated to a small column somewhere near the bottom of the page.

These traits do not court favour with the Majority of the male football audience (rightly or wrongly) already heavily prejudiced in their judgement

Outdated, ignorant and ill informed, (and in truth I've heard some frankly embarrassing and unwarranted comments from male friends about the women's game) or is it just simply the traditional male audience 'being realistic'?

Either way, at the moment,...that's just the way it is.


a balanced view Sharrow and there is no hiding from the facts that you have pointed out as far as "prejudice" is concerned from the majority of male football fans.
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goonerboy



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:59 am 
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I think sharrow has hit the nail on the head. The comparison with the men's game and the media ramming it down our throats does it a disservice. The pace, power , physicality and skill levels are different but given human biology plus the longer evolution time of the men's game then the differences are not surprising. So the media should rein in their attempts to convince us that women's football is just the same as top level men's football.
Personally i view it the same way as any other football ie in context. If i watch a youth team match or a children's match or a local park match i view it against the framework of that level. I would never belittle a kid or sunday league player because i can see better quality football in the premier league and likewise the women's game.
On the punditry side of things again there is probably a bit too much positive discrimination in favour of women.
What i want from a pundit is insight from experience and knowledge. With all due respect to the female pundits they have not played at that level so in reality are not much more qualified than a lower league or non league player or even a supporter who has played at a decent level but generally they would never be given punditry opportunities. However going past that point some women do good jobs and others dont but that equally applies to men pundits.
As for officials i really dont care what gender, sex, race creed etc they are as long as they know the rules and can apply them.
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:15 pm 
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goonerboy wrote:
I think sharrow has hit the nail on the head. The comparison with the men's game and the media ramming it down our throats does it a disservice. The pace, power , physicality and skill levels are different but given human biology plus the longer evolution time of the men's game then the differences are not surprising. So the media should rein in their attempts to convince us that women's football is just the same as top level men's football.
Personally i view it the same way as any other football ie in context. If i watch a youth team match or a children's match or a local park match i view it against the framework of that level. I would never belittle a kid or sunday league player because i can see better quality football in the premier league and likewise the women's game.
On the punditry side of things again there is probably a bit too much positive discrimination in favour of women.
What i want from a pundit is insight from experience and knowledge. With all due respect to the female pundits they have not played at that level so in reality are not much more qualified than a lower league or non league player or even a supporter who has played at a decent level but generally they would never be given punditry opportunities. However going past that point some women do good jobs and others dont but that equally applies to men pundits.
As for officials i really dont care what gender, sex, race creed etc they are as long as they know the rules and can apply them.


Another well thought out posting with a good deal of common sense applied and the reality of comparing Apples with Apples and not anything else.
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NWM Football



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:11 pm 
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Agree with Goonerboy's comments.

I attended the England-Australia game at Fulham a couple of years ago, it was very reminiscent of a Schools' International. Technically excellent, but the game was nowhere near as physical and pacey as top level men's matches which we're all used to, so the players do get more time & space on the ball to perform.

As also mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the England 20-0 result the other week has probably done more harm than good in reinforcing the 'it's only women's football, and therefore is tinpot' view. And I don't think the BBC's obsession with it and dare I say it, attempts to dress it up to the level they claim it is are good for the women's game either. Let it develop and find it's own natural level, that would give it more credability.

What I DO know is that my late uncle, David Marlowe who was Chairman of the Women's Football Association between 1972 and 1977 when it was still a separate entity from the F.A., and assisted in many other capacities over the rest of his life would be stunned and delighted at the way in which it has developed.
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littlewiggy



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:58 pm 
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goonerboy wrote:
I think sharrow has hit the nail on the head. The comparison with the men's game and the media ramming it down our throats does it a disservice. The pace, power , physicality and skill levels are different but given human biology plus the longer evolution time of the men's game then the differences are not surprising. So the media should rein in their attempts to convince us that women's football is just the same as top level men's football.
Personally i view it the same way as any other football ie in context. If i watch a youth team match or a children's match or a local park match i view it against the framework of that level. I would never belittle a kid or sunday league player because i can see better quality football in the premier league and likewise the women's game.
On the punditry side of things again there is probably a bit too much positive discrimination in favour of women.
What i want from a pundit is insight from experience and knowledge. With all due respect to the female pundits they have not played at that level so in reality are not much more qualified than a lower league or non league player or even a supporter who has played at a decent level but generally they would never be given punditry opportunities. However going past that point some women do good jobs and others dont but that equally applies to men pundits.
As for officials i really dont care what gender, sex, race creed etc they are as long as they know the rules and can apply them.



Terrific post & my thoughts exactly.
There's far too much positive discrimination & the constant ramming of the women's game down our throats is jarring. I'd have a lot more time for it if they did their own thing & stopped desperately clinging to the coat tails of the men's game by claiming "new records" & suchlike. They're only ridiculing & tarnishing their own product by doing so.

In the interests of fair play & just to give my thoughts some balance though, Sian Massey is the best lino out there, IMO. Barely ever gets a call wrong & puts some of the truly, truly awful male officials to shame. An excellent official who should be much higher up the list.

PS. I quite like Alex Scott too, but familiarity breeds contempt. She'll be reading the Ten O'Clock News next. TV execs please note: Less is often more!
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Flaming Pie



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:18 pm 
Post subject: Women in football both on and off the field of view
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Great debate initiated by Leslie. I think we have talked about this before . I recall talking about one of my grandkids teams . The star player in his ( mainly boys team) team was a brave little girl.She got kicked all over the pitch by the lads.. She was full of tricks and skill. I told her parents she reminded me of the great George Best. They seemed puzzled, I think they struggled to make sense of what l was going on about. I told them , she gets gets kicked , then picks herself up and carries on displaying her skills, just like Best did.. At the end of the season Man City signed her. I should be a talent scout! I understand that sometimes, the way women commentators in sport( cricket, rugby , football ) come across sometimes doesn’t look good . My wife recently said to me that it’s sad the way on SKY they go to a match report , and the women sound like men . But, let’s face it, they have only ever had male role models , ( the way match reports are relayed to viewers) in the world of football. They are bound to sound like men. I think Leslie took a chance bringing this topic up. People like Sharrow and others who coach girls team are a credit to kids football. The way this has been discussed,, just shows what a great forum this is .None of the silly, women are not tough enough crap. We all know women are tougher than men!
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Bokbag



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:52 pm 
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I don’t get any of the arguments about it “being shoved down our throats” in what possible way is that the case? It comes up on Twitter or whatever and it’s spoken about. It’s not rammed down our throats at all unless you are uncomfortable about it. In fact it is just plain wrong. There is research from 2020 which shows at any one time the coverage of female sport in print and tv is 4% and rarely gets 10% so if you believe this is rammed down your throat…

I don’t care about plenty of male dominated sports but others do and they are allowed to hear about it. The one thing that has been spoken about is the lady who is the leading scorer in football world cups. Again so what? The equal pay thing is from the national teams. And given it is a growing sport this should be encouraged too. Just like lottery funding for athletes are equal. Domestically there has never been an argument for this so that’s a straw man.

It is on sky sports news when there is a transfer…so? There are women commentators? So what? Can only men speak about the mens game? Well by that line of argument why are men involved in any way in the women’s game? What difference does a persons gender make when talking about the game? Benitez and Mourinho didn’t play football to any high standard but are amazingly successful managers. Why should the opinion a male commentator who gets paid a fortune to say bland garbage (Owen, Ferdinand and Dublin stand out) be put at a higher level than Alex
Scott because she is female? Or Guillerme Balague because he never played to a high level. Not buying it. For me at the heart of this is that for many there is a chauvanistic streak that women should stay out of men’s football. Which is ironic given this is the anniversary of the women’s game being banned by men. Maybe they should have stayed out of it as well given they weren’t women.

No one is saying it’s the same game. It is developing and it needs exposure to keep going. The leaps from the hosting of the Euros to now has been amazing. But the next step relies on commercial exposure and endorsements, the very things that are being complained about are what is needed to keep it moving. Again this smacks of “it should know it’s place”.
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sharrowblade
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:03 am 
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I fully understand that response Bokbag, as You're a parent who has a daughter that plays the game. Loves it and long may that continue.

I have a close friend whose daughter a few years ago began playing at Under 9s, I know because I sponsored her. But before that, I don't think he would have considered watching a girls game, or progressed to watching a women's game as he does now.

And therein lays a major challenge for the professional women's game.

With regards to history 'You cannot say on one hand 'Marta is now the leading scorer in World Cup history overtaking Klose'....and argue 'So what' and then on the other hand say 'its not the same game'.

That's basically the point that's being made.

I've no issue with the promoting of the women's game and exposure, but there's a fine balance, a danger of over exposing it to the extent of describing it as an amazing product when in the eyes of the traditional male audience it clearly is not.

This is the reference to the media 'ramming down their throats'.

With regards to 'Can only men speak about the mens game? Well by that line of argument why are men involved in any way in the women’s game?

Not at all,.... but men are involved in the women's game because by the women's own admission they need them,

Rightly or wrongly...The same cannot be said the other way around.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:41 am 
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Bokbag although i understand your points, they dont really address the fundamental issues. The reality is that the women's game is not the same level as the men's. There is a certain amount of interest but by and large only a few hundred people go to watch the average league game. So why is a sport that is only getting such limited attendances even getting 4-10% of mainstream media coverage and investment ? As an example our national basketball league gets similar attendances but most people probably dont even know there is a league or could name any clubs. There are olympic sports which get virtually zero coverage etc. Even if we take the view that football and our top level clubs will always get the exposure and sponsorship as its our national sport then where is the coverage of the youth and U23 game ? So the observation is that there is a disproportionate media coverage compared to real world popularity/interest and purely because it is women not because the product is unbelievably good.
Similarly with female pundits of which some are widely recognised as good pundits. However they are being promoted and given opportunities because they are women not because they have the relevant and more experience than other men. Their level of football probably barely reached good non league standard but when would someone who had played his career at Conference or Isthmian league level be given an opportunity to be a pundit on MotD or 5 live etc ? The answer is never so why are others of similar experience being given opportunities simply because they are women ? That is the issue with the positive discrimination.
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Paul Johnson



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:42 am 
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goonerboy wrote:
I think sharrow has hit the nail on the head. The comparison with the men's game and the media ramming it down our throats does it a disservice. The pace, power , physicality and skill levels are different but given human biology plus the longer evolution time of the men's game then the differences are not surprising. So the media should rein in their attempts to convince us that women's football is just the same as top level men's football.
Personally i view it the same way as any other football ie in context. If i watch a youth team match or a children's match or a local park match i view it against the framework of that level. I would never belittle a kid or sunday league player because i can see better quality football in the premier league and likewise the women's game.
On the punditry side of things again there is probably a bit too much positive discrimination in favour of women.
What i want from a pundit is insight from experience and knowledge. With all due respect to the female pundits they have not played at that level so in reality are not much more qualified than a lower league or non league player or even a supporter who has played at a decent level but generally they would never be given punditry opportunities. However going past that point some women do good jobs and others dont but that equally applies to men pundits.
As for officials i really dont care what gender, sex, race creed etc they are as long as they know the rules and can apply them.


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Tynie Topics



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:31 am 
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goonerboy wrote:
Bokbag although i understand your points, they dont really address the fundamental issues. The reality is that the women's game is not the same level as the men's. There is a certain amount of interest but by and large only a few hundred people go to watch the average league game. So why is a sport that is only getting such limited attendances even getting 4-10% of mainstream media coverage and investment ? As an example our national basketball league gets similar attendances but most people probably dont even know there is a league or could name any clubs. There are olympic sports which get virtually zero coverage etc. Even if we take the view that football and our top level clubs will always get the exposure and sponsorship as its our national sport then where is the coverage of the youth and U23 game ? So the observation is that there is a disproportionate media coverage compared to real world popularity/interest and purely because it is women not because the product is unbelievably good.
Similarly with female pundits of which some are widely recognised as good pundits. However they are being promoted and given opportunities because they are women not because they have the relevant and more experience than other men. Their level of football probably barely reached good non league standard but when would someone who had played his career at Conference or Isthmian league level be given an opportunity to be a pundit on MotD or 5 live etc ? The answer is never so why are others of similar experience being given opportunities simply because they are women ? That is the issue with the positive discrimination.


I worked briefly this year with Sky, I sat in on a Zoom meeting from Head of Programming or something, and they were all extremely proud that Sky is now promoting the womens game in exactly the same manner as the EPL, equal coverage on Sky Sports News, same pre/post match analysis etc. a lot of money is being pumped into it.

I shook my head and pondered the pittance that Sky pay into Scottish football, and the amateurish coverage they provide at times. Looks like the English womens game will receive more attention, despite it still being in most cases a minority TV sport. It receives more attention than it has actually earned.

I can't help but think this is a forced box ticking exercise born out of equality issues in the news over the last few years. Look at Alex Scott, promoted beyond her abilities because she ticks a few boxes, meanwhile the Chelsea womens manager actually provides better analysis because she understands the game better but she doesn't get as much attention.

That's the media side of things which is a different issue to women being involved in the mens game.

My wife is Treasurer of our local semi-professional club, and there's as many women on the committee as men and it benefits us. We also have as ladies/girls section which is very popular and does a lot of good work and its great to see.
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BAZZERFOX42



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Totally agree with the comments about Emma Hayes, watched her last night alongside Henry and Shearer. The latter two were only there it seems for a self ego boost , whereas Ms Hayes gave concise and in-depth analysis of what was happening ...... if only Jurgen was listening
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:24 pm 
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With all due respect to the Alex Scott point that is just rubbish. She played at the highest level possible in the women’s game including in America and has a degree in sports broadcasting. She is academically more qualified than Gary Lineker was. To dismiss her because she is a black female “because she ticks a few boxes” is very poor. But I am sure everyone didn’t blink twice when Alan Shearer with no broadcasting experience at all was given a million pound a year contract for MOTD. Broadcasting is not the same as punditry. She is very well qualified for her role. You may not like her but frankly that’s not the same as saying she is above her pay grade.

To say the women’s game hasn’t earned it is also missing the point. It needs this level of support to grow and is one of the highest played girls sports in the country. There is also a problem with women stopping playing sport and being frowned at for playing. Some of this will not change until attitudes, including coverage change. I don’t understand why it would make someone uncomfortable?! I don’t care about F1 at all but I don’t whinge because it’s on sky sports news. Why can’t we just be happy that a women’s game is growing? This has nothing to do with me having a daughter and everything to do with believing it is right that resources are used to grow a game with massive potential.

I do agree 100% with the Chelsea manager point though she is excellent and far superior to most male pundits. But by the criteria above she shouldn’t be there because she didn’t play the same game (ie women should know their place)
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