Reprints of modern programmes - good or bad for the hobby?

[Tynie Topics]

I'm interested to hear collectors opinions on dealer originated reprints eg. David Allen (footballprogrammes.com) organising re-prints of VIP only issues for England away games. I note that he has stepped into the world of Scotland programmes and is doing a re-print of the recent Spain game, so its made me sit up and take notice.

The good thing about these re-prints appearing is that it makes something available which a lot of collectors can buy who would ordinarily not be able to obtain or afford an original. It in some ways fills the dreaded gap.

The bad thing I suppose is that those who have put the time and effort into obtaining orginals and perhaps a spare to swap, will see potential future values drop and swaps disappear as re-prints come onto the market which will satisfy some collectors.

What are people's opinion on this and the effect it has on the hobby? these items are obviously not original and will have been nowhere near the country where the game was played, are they any better than pirate issues? on the other hand is it a valuable service which enhances the hobby?

For non International collectors, how would you feel if eg. a (non club originated) reprint appeared of a rare VIP Man Utd or Arsenal or Chelsea away Champions League programme a few weeks after the game?
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[holtie96]

I hate the bloody things unless it clearly states reprint somewhere on it!
It just allows some people to con people, which is a shame for those who have them for the right reasons

[sharrowblade]

Bad..................very bad
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A Sheffield United Programme guide

[footballprogrammes.com]

Tynie Topics wrote:

David Allen (footballprogrammes.com) organising re-prints of VIP only issues for England away games.

Tynie Topics I have just caught up with your recent posts and although I would take issue with a lot of what you say I accept you are entitled to your view. I very seldom post on this board because as a so called 'established dealer' I believe you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. However I think it needs to be made crystal clear that:

David Allen has NEVER organised a reprint of an England away programme.

The Spanish 'dossier' is a unique situation in international football. It is neither a programme nor a VIP issue. It is merely press information presented in the style of a programme.

Having built up a client base of over 500 England away collectors by 2004, demand from more than half that number for a ‘gap filler’ when England played in Madrid meant a reprint of the dossier was my only option. I had NO INTENTION of doing so for the Scotland game but received a surprisingly high number of requests from Scottish collectors who had obviously seen the Spain v England reprints on my site and formed the demand for my late decision.

TYNIE I think you should have the decency to acknowledge that fact that other than this dossier I have NOT reproduced any England programme or prove me otherwise.

Each dossier reprint is clearly marked as such and no attempt is made to hoodwink collectors (unfortunately and in conjunction with Gary Spain's ongoing investigations into dubious origination of British/Irish European away programmes that is something I feel may have to be contended with in future from less reputable sources but that’s another story)

There is an obvious split between collectors who like them and those that don’t. In my opinion a reprint can actually enhance the value of an original. When I purchased the footballprogrammes.com domain from a dealer I raised the concern that with .tv, .eu, .info etc coming on stream with more to follow it would devalue the .com desirability. On the contrary he replied, they can invent as many new ones as they like but there will still only be ONE .com The same can be applied to genuinely rare football programmes. There can be as many reprints as you like but they are NOT an original and do not necessarily have a detrimental effect on the desirability/value of the real thing.

[tommy]

Thank you, David, for coming on and puting your point.

The key thing is that any repros must be clearly marked as such. If this is done I can see no objections, other than any copyright issues. There is a clear line between repros marked as repros and reprints purely done to deceive.

[Tynie Topics]

Quote:

Tynie Topics I have just caught up with your recent posts and although I would take issue with a lot of what you say I accept you are entitled to your view. I very seldom post on this board because as a so called 'established dealer' I believe you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. However I think it needs to be made crystal clear that: David Allen has NEVER organised a reprint of an England away programme. The Spanish 'dossier' is a unique situation in international football. It is neither a programme nor a VIP issue. It is merely press information presented in the style of a programme. Having built up a client base of over 500 England away collectors by 2004, demand from more than half that number for a ‘gap filler’ when England played in Madrid meant a reprint of the dossier was my only option. I had NO INTENTION of doing so for the Scotland game but received a surprisingly high number of requests from Scottish collectors who had obviously seen the Spain v England reprints on my site and formed the demand for my late decision. TYNIE I think you should have the decency to acknowledge that fact that other than this dossier I have NOT reproduced any England programme or prove me otherwise.

Thanks for replying Dave. I’m more than happy to acknowledge the fact, I was lead to believe that Croatia away was also a reprint but you have set the record straight and that’s fair enough. As for the Spain reprints, as I alluded to I can see both side of the story so I’m neither in one camp or the other at the moment. I guess your views can be coloured depending on whether you have an original or not.

Quote:

Each dossier reprint is clearly marked as such and no attempt is made to hoodwink collectors (unfortunately and in conjunction with Gary Spain's ongoing investigations into dubious origination of British/Irish European away programmes that is something I feel may have to be contended with in future from less reputable sources but that’s another story)

I’m not insinuating that you’re trying to hoodwink anyone and you clearly state these are reprints and identifiable as such, no problems with that. This thread wasn’t started with a view to slagging anyone, its more to do with starting a debate on the whole issue of reprints and the long term effects on the hobby [as you allude to, reprints from other sources may increase in future, and perhaps not so easily identifiable]. I know of the situation you refer to re the Spain v Scotland programme but I won’t comment too much on that for the time being.

Quote:

There is an obvious split between collectors who like them and those that don’t. In my opinion a reprint can actually enhance the value of an original. When I purchased the footballprogrammes.com domain from a dealer I raised the concern that with .tv, .eu, .info etc coming on stream with more to follow it would devalue the .com desirability. On the contrary he replied, they can invent as many new ones as they like but there will still only be ONE .com The same can be applied to genuinely rare football programmes. There can be as many reprints as you like but they are NOT an original and do not necessarily have a detrimental effect on the desirability/value of the real thing.

I would disagree with you on that point. The value of the last couple of Spain v England Dossiers has dropped since the re-prints have come onto the market. It appears they can’t even be shifted for £100 which is a particularly low price for a programme with such a low print run and rarity. It’s fairly obvious that a lot of collectors will be happy with owning a reprint rather than seek an expensive original, obviously the hard core serious collectors will want an original come hell or high water but once that demand is satisfied……..

It’s that part which concerns me, and which I’d like to hear other people’s opinions on.
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[footballprogrammes.com]

Tynie thank you for putting the record straight. As a matter of interest who on earth told you Croatia away had been reprinted? You do realise it is a 64 page properly printed programme similar to a English or Scottish premier league production? It would be impossible to copy it to anything like the original!!!

The reason the Spain v England dossiers have dropped in value is because, as I have already stated, they are NOT official programmes. Therefore a large percentage of collectors are not interested and have it marked as a 'no programme game' Once the few 'die hards' have got it the prices were bound to drop as there is no mass market. This is in stark contrast to say Turkey away in 1993 which has held its value because it is a proper programme.

[Tynie Topics]

footballprogrammes.com wrote:

Tynie thank you for putting the record straight. As a matter of interest who on earth told you Croatia away had been reprinted? You do realise it is a 64 page properly printed programme similar to a English or Scottish premier league production? It would be impossible to copy it to anything like the original!!!

I've seen it mentioned on here in the past, I guess its one of those urban myths that do the rounds. The Croatia programme I have from the Scotland game in 2000 is similar size and was VIP only, so I did find it a bit odd that someone had managed to churn out a reprint!

Quote:

The reason the Spain v England dossiers have dropped in value is because, as I have already stated, they are NOT official programmes. Therefore a large percentage of collectors are not interested and have it marked as a 'no programme game' Once the few 'die hards' have got it the prices were bound to drop as there is no mass market. This is in stark contrast to say Turkey away in 1993 which has held its value because it is a proper programme.

Its all about perceptions of course. I class it as a programme as for me, it meets the criteria. I've not heard of too many Scotland collectors who dont consider it a programme but I guess its all down to personal opinion.

I do think that reprints depress values for the simple fact that there is a cheaper alternative on the market. I think thats the main reason although the debate over programme v press guide will also have a bit of an effect.
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[Dorking]

I've posted quite a bit on the subject yesterday on the other (VIP) thread (rare programmes part of the forum)

I like to have a programme for every game that I attend. Having gone to 50+ England aways over the last 14 years, at times this has been very challenging. I was well chuffed when David reprinted the 'Dossier" from the Spain game, as it ensured I didn't have to have a gap. Yes I know it's not an actual programme, but it is in the style of a programme and it did me, as it was the best that was available. An original copy of the dossier would cost probably £100 or more, which I wouldn't be prepared to pay, so for me this was the perfect solution.

In addition, I would say that the fact dozens of fans/collectors were happy with the reprint of the dossier and not chasing the handful of originals does mean that the price of a genuine original dossier doesn't go absolutely raving stupid for the handful of obsessives who HAVE to have the original and not a reprint (ie £500 on ebay etc)

Every collector has their own idea of what they do and do not want to put in their collection - for example at World Cup and Euro Finals, I get annoyed that there is only one official brochure for the whole group stage (ok there is probably a few different language versions but you get my point!) - so for me, I also try to get a teamsheet (a copy will do) and if possible a 'pirate' programme.

Some collectors won't touch pirate programmes with a bargepole (they are usually pretty awful to be fair), and some will be obsessive and only want an original teamsheet, not a copy, yet other fans/collectors (Andorra away in Barcelona both times) literally buy armfuls of pirate programmes even though they know they are totally fake, as they are either 'completists' or prefer something that loosly resembles a programme to what is actually official, but is literally no more than a 4 sided teamsheet (no more than a folded piece of A4)

As I said elsewhere, some of the glossy away programmes are absolutely fantastic - some are huge (Argentina v England in Geneva - A4 and very thick, yet free to those there early enough before people taking 10 each got them all, similarly Switzerland away this campaign - literally help yourself from a supermarket trolly full of A4 glossies) , some are less good Holland away - tiny 'Wickes catalogue' under every seat, then there's the ones that you either have to be obsessive to find and beg for, or order from Dave.

I'm always happy with what I can get, because the values only ever seem to go up - several of the ones I have got either free or very cheap abroad are worth decent prices now, and will be worth even more in decades to come when my son inherits them!

[goonerboy]

"I like to have a programme for every game that I attend"

Dorking I agree with you to an extent except that personally I am a purist and if the item was not from the match then it is not a programme from the game. In fact I can't connect at all with the idea of collecting copies or reprints of anything. Where is the collecting satisfaction if it is not an original item. However each to his own and I won't criticise anyone who collects something else or has a different view.

Regards impact on the hobby, the reprints set to deceive will potentially be a big problem for modern programmes because the quality of production capability is so good and easy these days.

Even the clearly identified reprint will have an impact in short term on the item for the reasons outlined above but am not so sure it will in long term. Eventually the majority of collectors splash the cash on something that earlier in their collecting career they vowed never to spend so much. Primarily because as collectors advance their collections they eventually slow down ias their wants lists dwindle so they then look to fill gaps or replace poor items/reprints with better condition originals. And the originals still being rare will still likely command a premium. Thus making a quick buck may be impacted but long term value may still hold.

[Kickoff3pm]

As a collector and dealer I have similar feelings about any reprint.

As a dealer I want programmes to be hard to find, not only because it brings more income for me but also part of the enjoyment I get out of working in the area. It's prob why I tend not to deal in general or new programmes, it's too much like work shift things in and out of stock with no time to concider the history behind the item

I did look into offering reprints because clearly some people want them but gave up out of boredom and, well basicely the quality was not there for my customers (well I didn't think so).

As a collector I really don't see the point in buying any reprint. For me the enjoyment is in knowing that item was at the game, even if I wasn't. Afterall that's difference between memorabilia and collectables, if it has no connection to the event and is an afterthought how can it be concidered a memorable item or "memorable media" as I like to say.

Thats why I tend to like neat notes inside programmes or even better reports. As far as I'm concerned having a complete run of FA Cup Final programmes with 20-30 reprints included is not collecting it's just hoarding but whatever floats your boat

[garyspain]

I don't have a problem with reprints once they are clearly sold as such. I do have a problem with people who try to pass them off as originals on ebay with sellers in Holland, Belarus and Ukraine being particularly prolific here.

I do buy pirates if they are at the game/venue. Miguel from Madrid is particularly prolific here and I've seen him at Irish games as far away as Stuttgart and Bari. He normally charges 5 euros for a poor quality issue with bad English. I'm one of the guys mentioned who chases around looking for these pirates.

I wouldn't touch the ebay pirates produced normally hundreds or thousands of miles from a game and sold only on ebay.

[Tynie Topics]

Like Gary, and with regards to pirates, I dont have too much of a problem if they are physically on sale at the stadiums, I'll buy them. The problem arises when chancers in the UK churn something out of their PC, I mean who the hell wants to buy that?

As for reprints, I can see the instances of malicious, unmarked reprints rising as printing techniques improve and become cheaper, making it more and more difficult to tell the difference. That's a worry.
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