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Chelsea home postponed programmes
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Bluebob



Joined: 20 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Kilfie
Yes, same picture on front of Leeds postponed as the Huddersfield cover picture.
Bob
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Bluebob wrote:
Kilfie
Yes, same picture on front of Leeds postponed as the Huddersfield cover picture.
Bob


Hello Bob,

Thank you for that confirmation.
That means the following 4 programmes from that season had the same photo on the front cover, as mentioned above.

Leeds. 2.2.63 postponed
Portsmouth 16.2.63 postponed
Portsmouth 20.2.63 postponed
Huddersfield 2.3.63 game played.

Best wishes

Kilfie
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facup1939



Joined: 04 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:57 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Portsmouth Feb 1963
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Ever since Kilfie58 originally posted this, I thought I would do some research into the Portsmouth games in February 1963. I have now had the chance to do this and this is what I have come up with.

Pompey were due to play Chelsea at Stamford Bridge on Saturday 16/2/1963, and an FA Cup replay away to Scunthorpe on Monday 18/2/1963.

Friday 15 February 1963
Portsmouth Evening News
'Pompey were tomorrow due to visit Chelsea, whose pitch had been playable throughout the week.
Today it was ankle deep in mud and frozen solid for 18 inches to 2 feet underneath.
Chelsea called in London referee Mr A J Sturgeon who said it would be impossible to get all the surface water away in time for a match tomorrow.
Shortly after that was called off came the news that Pompey's FA Cup replay against Scunthorpe on Monday is postponed for the eighth time. It will now be played next Wednesday (20/2) if there is sufficient improvement in the pitch.'


The Football Mail for Saturday 16 February had little to add, other than to confirm that the Scunthorpe replay had been rearranged for Wednesday 20/2, although the pitch at The Old Showground was 'still in a dreadful state'


The Portsmouth Evening News Monday 18 February

'The Pompey Secretary (Mr Reg Mulcock) said today that Scunthorpe officials had arranged for a pitch inspection for noon tomorrow' (Tuesday)


The Portsmouth Evening News Tuesday 19 February

'The Old Show ground pitch went through the routine inspection again at midday and was not playable. There were still mounds of ice and snow on the surface, and an experiment with chemicals had not been successful in removing them'

In view of the need for match practice, Pompey Manager Mr George Smith, decided to give his first team men a run in the hastily arranged friendly with the Royal Navy at the United Services Men's Ground this afternoon. (Which Pompey subsequently won 4-1)


Conclusion:

There is no doubt a programme would have been produced for the Chelsea v Portsmouth game on Saturday 16 February, as the game was on until the weather turned on Thursday night.

However, F A Cup ties take precedence, then and now, and with a Cup replay already arranged for the Monday, and then rearranged for the Wednesday, why would Chelsea produce a programme for Wednesday 20/2?

There is nothing in the Portsmouth papers to suggest that there was even a consideration for rearranging the Chelsea game for the Wednesday.

I have spoken to a couple of other Portsmouth collectors who agree with me that even if a Chelsea v Portsmouth programme dated 20/2 does exist, it would not be classed as a Postponed Issue, because the match was never rearranged for this date, but merely an oddity.

However, like Kilfie58, I do know someone who has a copy of the issue dated 16/2, and I hope to be posting a scan of the cover shortly.
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:09 am 
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Hello FA Cup 1939,

May I thank you for your research, and your reply.

However, a programme was produced for the 20/2/63 date. It defies logic to call this just an "oddity". Whether such a rearrangement detail did not appear in Portsmouth papers or not, the programme exists.
Now, we can only speculate as to whether it was a "pre-arranged" possibility, depending on postponement of the Portsmouth FA Cup game, or not. But the point is that as a programme was printed, perhaps in limited quantities, and as such must be regarded after the fact as a postponed game. It may have been a postponement of a pre arranged possible game.. Which, given the circumstances of that season, is entirely possible. Already, 6 weeks of postponements had occurred, and clubs tried in any way possible to try to fill in games at short notice.
I know of at least 3 people with the 20th Feb programme. It is, of course, entirely up to those individuals to let these copies be made publicly seen. The one person I am most acquainted with is still considering the idea. It would be amiss of me to push the idea too much.

Once again, most appreciated

Kilfie
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facup1939



Joined: 04 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:46 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Portsmouth Feb 1963
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Hi Kilfie58

Well, we must agree to disagree!

I really don't see how you can class a game as postponed when it was never scheduled for that date in the first place.

If there is indeed an issue for 20/2/63 then it is no more than a printers mock up. Obviously you, and anyone else, is free to add it to their postponed list, I certainly won't be.

Having reread your posts from last year, I see you knew one person who owns one (you do not specify if it is the 16/2 or 20/2 issue) and he knows someone who owns both. Now you know at least 3 people who own 20/2 issue. Isn't it sad that none of these three people are prepared, even under the cloak of anonymity, to provide a scan of at least the front cover.

Still, I have now received permission to provide a scan of the front cover of the postponed issue for 16/2/63. The autograph on the front is Bobby Tambling, and I understand there is a certificate of authenticity confirming this. When or why Bobby Tambling signed this programme is, I understand, unknown.




Maybe now this has come to light, the owner of the other copies will grant permission for scans to be released.

I would just say that I have seen the original of this programme, as have at least two other Pompey collectors, and there is no doubt that it is an original, not a mock up or a copy.
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Hello again,

Thank you for your reply.
You will excuse me if I can detect a slight bit of animosity in your reply. I do hope not! I am writing this in a calm and polite mood. I wish ADMIN to see that statement.

First of all, scouring Portsmouth newspapers is not exactly a trump card. Especially as it is concerns an away game. Had you also included all Local, West London and National newspapers, your conclusion would surely be on firmer ground? Just a polite observation, sir.

Secondly. I know the owner of the original example you produced as a scan personally. He kindly told me if this a while ago, and I was honoured to keep my word re publishing it here, or anywhere. That you have done so is great.. But it will not take away from the fact that it is STILL up to each owner whether they wish to divulge any of their collections. That, I respect.. Whether A does it, does not mean B C or D will.

Thirdly. Is it possible, over the course of a few months, to discover a programme to be owned by more than one person? As you allude, rather impolitely I might add, that I may be "gilding the lily" somewhat.. I would humbly and politely suggest you consider the above to have happened.
The reference was to the 20th Feb, not the 16th, I might add.

Look. I'm not here to argue. I'm not here to bash a fist on the table either.. But the "assumption".. Because that is what it is, of a programme being firstly "an oddity" and then "a printers mock up", is totally without proof nor foundation.
Therefore if you, and any Portsmouth collectors won't regard it as a postponed programme, that is totally up to you.. But I resent, quite strongly, the inference that a) it doesn't exist unless I get someone to scan it for you, or B) that you and you alone can decide on behalf of ALL programme collectors what is a legitimate programme and what isn't based solely, it appears, on you scouring local Portsmouth sports pages.I wouldn't dream of being so pretentious to other club supporter collectors! Perhaps Chelsea collectors know a lot more about their prigrammes than PORTSMOUTH, Preston or Prestatyn supporters do... Sir.

Yes, we certainly will agree to disagree.

Kilfie58
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:42 pm 
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To add

For your, and all Portsmouth programme collectors' consideration.

The 20th Feb postponed programme has been known in Chelsea programme collectors circles for quite a few years, to my knowledge at least. (more than 10 years)

The 16th Feb, was only known as a rumour.. And totally unseen until very recently.

Sorry if I have upset your conclusions.


Kilfie58
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facup1939



Joined: 04 Dec 2014
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Location: New Malden

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:55 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Portsmouth Feb 1963
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Crikey Kilfie58, I do seem to have hit a raw nerve.

It would seem that we have a mutual friend, as you also know the person who owns the programme for 16/2 with Bobby Tambling's autograph.

I can only state again that I would not class the 20/2 issue as Postponed as there is absolutely no evidence to show it was ever scheduled for this date. What you, any Chelsea collector, any Portsmouth collector, and anyone else chooses to do, is completely up to them.

My other point was it is a shame that there are not more people like Leslie, and many others on this forum, who choose to share their prized possessions, rare or otherwise. Of course, everyone has the right to do what they like, but I am sure there are plenty of Chelsea collectors, and Portsmouth collectors, who would like to see any items they don't have in their own collection.
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:59 pm 
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FACup39,

No raw nerve hit at all, I can assure you. 😊

Two points.. I will repeat them, my apologies.

1)When you first declare a postponed game programme, known to exist, as an "oddity" then, from nowhere at all, declare it as a "printer's mock up".. You really do deserve the response you got. I humbly suggest your imagination is indeed working overtime.

I suspect these two game programmes have thoroughly cheesed you off because you don't posess them, and they rather ruin a whole load of statistics compiled over many years. Like it or not, both programmes exist, both programmes were printed. Now, you are going to have to accept, going against all local Portsmouth newspapers, that clubs DO NOT get programmes printed willy nilly, without reason. It's a shame WE ALL don't have original copies of both, yes.. But printed programmes they were. Therefore, the simple, most logical reason for such is the possibility of the game being played on either of the dates. I repeat.. The 20th Feb programme has been known about for many years in Chelsea collector circles. I repeat, it is not until VERY recently the 16th Feb example came to light, and before that, was only rumoured, very abstractly, to exist at all. Out mutual friend had never heard of it.. I had heard of it around 9 years ago.. But dismissed the rumour as speculation only.

2) I repeat. It is bordering on being publicly rude, to tell one set of club supporters on this site, or on any public site for that matter, that you know better than they, with VERY limited historical fact checking.
I'm 60..I was brought up to write or speak with respect to others in public. Your "I know better than thou" posture is not welcome to these ears, thank you. Respect the fact that WE Chelsea programme collectors have very little knowledge of Portsmouth's home programmes through the years, and would not dream of telling you we know better without CONCRETE proof. And even then, it would be done far more succinctly.

With respect to ADMIN on this site.. My apologies for feeling I have to explain and repeat myself. No offense is meant. To any party.
Now I hope the matter rests here.

Regards

Kilfie58
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Dorking



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Can't believe all that was typed whilst Chelsea were playing in a cup semi final at the same time
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facup1939



Joined: 04 Dec 2014
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Location: New Malden

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:04 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Portsmouth Feb 1963
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Well, Kilfie58 might want the matter to rest, but I would like to pursue it a little more.

I have not made many posts on here, mainly because I have little or no knowledge of many of the subjects raised, and those which I have are normally resolved by the time I get to reading the thread.

However, I do feel that I can contribute to this post. I view the forum most days, and have gained a lot of knowledge from some of the very informed posters over the last few years. This forum is about spreading knowledge, and healthy debate.

So Kilfie58 thinks I am cheesed off because I don't possess these programmes and it has ruined all my statistics. Well, a list of postponed programmes is a working document with additions happening from time to time as more information comes to light. Indeed I have recently had to add the 16/2 match to the list! At the last count, I did not have 10 of the known Portsmouth postponed games since WW2, so the addition of another one to the list hardly ruins my statistics, or my collection.

I would just like to explore the details relating to 20/2 a little more. I believe I put forward a reasonable case, backed up by research, in my post of 23/1. However, at the time, Chelsea were top of the table, and playing in front of home crowds of 20/30,000. Surely if they were even considering trying to play the game on Wed 20/2, they would be shouting it from the rooftops, and the only way of doing this would be to get newspaper coverage. Not even the Portsmouth Secretary made any comment about this possibility, which he surely would have done even if it were a vague possibility, so how was anyone to know?

BUT, even if we accept the possibility that the game was tentatively rescheduled for 20/2, when was it postponed? The Portsmouth Cup replay at Scunthorpe was only called off on midday on Tuesday 19/2. so the go ahead for the game the following day could only have happened then. Portsmouth played their full first team in a friendly later that afternoon for match practice, which they would hardly have done if there was even the remote possibility of playing Chelsea the following day. If Chelsea had previously announced that the game had been rearranged, but clearly did not take place, then how did they stop 30,000 people descending on Stamford Bridge the following day? Surely again there would be something in the newspapers?

Turning back to the programme for 16/2. For a moment I thought there might be another copy out there, without an autograph, (Where there is one etc etc) but then I re read Kilfies post in which he states that he knows 'the owner of the original example you produced as a scan personally'. Well, I spoke to the owner last night and I am told that a scan of the programme was provided to an acquaintance a few months ago, but the owner has never received any request for a scan to be published on this, or any other forum. If such a request had been made, then permission would have been given, as it was to me a couple of days ago.

Now, I don't know who Kilfie is, so I have no idea how well the owner knows him, but I am assured that no request has ever been made by anybody to publish a scan.

However, in closing, I would love to see a scan of the cover of 20/2. We can debate all day long about whether or not it should be classed as a Postponed issue, and everyone can make their own mind up, but as a Portsmouth collector, I am interested in seeing anything like this to do with my club.
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manchesterunitedman1



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Interesting thread for sure and seeing as I got a mention in all of that conversation I thought I may show a few postponed programmes concerning Manchester United that I have from 1902-03 https://flic.kr/s/aHsjwo6np6

Furthermore, please take a look at this link also https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFNz4tq
where 2 programmes were produced but the games never took place because there was a result and a 3rd was in the process of being put together..

On 29th May[Wednesday night] 1968 at Wembley Manchester United met Benfica and after extra time United won 4-1 which is common historical knowledge, HOWEVER in case the game ended in a draw after extra time, a Replay was scheduled for 2 days later on the Friday night at Highbury, Tens of 1000's of programmes were printed but were destroyed after the game and of course as always happens in these situations the guys responsible for burning them all "nick" a copy as a souvenir.


So is it a programme or is it not?, well to my knowledge only 3 have ever surfaced and the last one was a few years back at Auction and fetched with commissions around 3k.


Similar scenario in 1973, Plymouth Argyle were drawn in the FA Cup at United but produced a programme in case of a replay[sensible acumen being shown as back then Argyle would have received 25% of the 31,810 gate AND most importantly as replay's were always on the Wednesday after the Saturday there may not have been sufficient time to edit, print and distribute it and especially as back then there were political issues with Miners strikes, 3 day weeks and all of that] so allowing for them to lose they were still quids in by binning them all. I am reliably informed that the copy I have is the only known one to exist and the toughest Arsenal home programme also.

Preperation for Replays in Cup Finals are nothing new and in 1957 had Aston Villa not won the Cup then they would have played the replay at Everton and a printers proof was produced[mine is a copy], so the same question is there-a programme or not?!. Ray Adler has the original printers proof [I got my copy from the guy who eventually sold it].


Some collectors demand everything played on their ground even it is a neutral game and some refuse to regard them at all, but the fact remains they were produced by the clubs whose intention it was to sell them and make a profit, but the weather or as in the case of a Cup match-an actual result kyboshed it all.


I feel no need to comment on the 2 members who have commenced a game of verbal tennis on the matter as it is an old chestnut of what is and what is not regarded, but if one of the club's themselves did sanction something to be printed and the game never took place is that not sufficient evidence but if no one is willing to show it then the debate will just linger on.

Everyone complained in the 1960-70-80-90's about dealers, as they determined the condition and the prices and it was a case of taking it or leaving it, then ebay came along and blew everything wide open and in my opinion as with most of us-all for the better particularly when buying and yes it can be challenging with ebay selling for sure but in reality it works and even if you do not like it you can get your items to market and have millions looking at them in a matter of minutes.

Similarly has been the scenario with collectors, the close to the chest players, the secretive types, the ones who say nowt and admit to nothing-and then there are collectors who are damn well proud of what they have be it any form of football memorabilia whether it is worth pennies or pounds and in 2007 I discovered the flickr site and put a few bits on it and did little but I started to notice that the site was getting a little following and after 2 years in 2009 I took it all a lot more seriously in making more efforts to list more stuff, it was never a case of look what I have got[as has been reported in the past] I always thought my balls were big enough anyway without showing any stuff-nor did or do I give a flying fig anyway, as it is my stuff I bought and paid for it all out of working hard and why should I not let anyone/everyone see what there is-like everyone who has ever done this we are proud to show what we have no matter the value or the age or anything else!, it is not going to devalue the items because I have the originals anyway, PLUS the fact nowadays it is great to also see what else is out there for my club ad others as I am not that insular in only being committed to MU items as anyone who knows me can testify too. I get certain items copied by unscrupulous rogues out there, but that is how it is. I have even spotted some toerag who has copied a programme from my auction catalogue in 2000 and is selling them off as reprints-well he was, eating through a straw for 3 months kinda put him off trying it on again!-haha only joking, well....



There are some fabulous collections on flickr and many other personal websites that collectors have set up themselves. Programmes, Tickets, Badges, Photos, Menu's, Itineraries, Shirts etc etc it is great to see and shows there are no boundaries whether it be someone specialising in Amateur club's items or hardcore World Cup stuff from the 1930's, everyone can show what they want and it brings a lot of pleasure despite the total boring scanning or uploading images from phones or cameras, BUT the results are there to see and to me no better satisfaction when a new batch is added.


To end I would just wish to say that anyone who has those pre-historic views of saying and showing nowt and perhaps not even displaying a few bits or a lot at home is not getting anywhere enjoyment from it that they should.

Perhaps, this may evoke a few more comments but I would say that if the responses are sensible then go ahead and write what you wish but anyone who fancies a pop at me then PM me as no one else is interested enough to see or listen and the days on this forum of conversations getting out of hand are well and truly over and will not be tolerated by the Administrators, this group is to have sensible chatter and yes sometimes folk get a little uptight, but hey they are only bits of paper and if you needed cash to pay for serious matters like an operation or similar horrible scenarios, we would all if we had to get rid of it all overnight, as I said it's just bits of paper.


Just a final sobering thought, we are all but caretakers of the amounts of stuff we have acquired and will continue to do so over the years, we have saved & salvaged stuff from the abyss of the refuse bin or the fire or the tip and for all of that alone we are all to be congratulated!, but ONE day it will no longer be ours! Shocked

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pompeygazz



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:58 am 
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well Paul , youre like a pitbull with a bone but all the same i agree with you,if you &mr gibbs dont think it exists then thats good enough for me,,lets see some evidence !!!! Sherlock
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goonerboy



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:05 am 
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Interesting discussion thread as touches on the "when is a programme not a programme" topic which is a difficult/personal one.

Regarding the chelsea v portsmouth one the rationale as to why there is unlikely to be a programme produced specifically for the 20/02 makes a lot of sense and could there be a possibility that something produced for 16/02 was then going to be used for the 20/02 ? As shown there was something put together for the 16th and how many updates would really have been necessary for the same match the following midweek ? Just a thought.

On the broader topic i doubt there is a hobby-wide definition of what is classified as a programme. Personally i dont have any interest in productions relating to a postponed match and I only have interest in items related to matches that happened. There are also probably distinctions to be made within the never happened concept. So in the case of the ManUtd v Benfica replay is that really a "programme" because that is a non-existent game. Not only did it not it not get played that following week, it never got played and was never due to be played. This of course contrasts with a match postponed due to "acts of god" which were matches definitely planned to be played and did get played but at a different date. As i said neither scenarios interest me from a collecting point of view but i fully understand that it does for other folks.

However does it really matter whether postponed are counted as official programmes to collect ? Either way those you want to collect them are free to do so if they can find and afford them and the rest of us can leave them. If i dont collect them i dont anticipate any harm coming to my life because Leslie is spot on.....it is a hobby and they are pieces of paper.
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:10 am 
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Just to make things clear.
I have not, at any time, asked for permission to print or copy or scan the item (16/2/63) simply because I was asked by the owner " not to do so, before he gave me the OK to do so."
I have kept my word, and not asked him further. As you yourself have, and been given permission, all is well.

Therefore, no request to the owner has ever come from me. Thus, you have your answer FACup39.

As for the 20/2/63 programme. I have been told the same programme was used, with a change of cover only. As I said previously, twice, the 20th Feb programme has been known of fir quite a few years to my knowledge, in Chelsea collectors circles. THE surprise was the 16th Feb programme. So.. You can deduce what you will from it.


Kilfie58


Last edited by kilfie58 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dorking



Joined: 05 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:33 am 
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goonerboy wrote:
Interesting discussion thread as touches on the "when is a programme not a programme" topic which is a difficult/personal one.



On the broader topic i doubt there is a hobby-wide definition of what is classified as a programme. Personally i dont have any interest in productions relating to a postponed match and I only have interest in items related to matches that happened.

However does it really matter whether postponed are counted as official programmes to collect ? Either way those you want to collect them are free to do so if they can find and afford them and the rest of us can leave them. If i dont collect them i dont anticipate any harm coming to my life because Leslie is spot on.....it is a hobby and they are pieces of paper.



That is an interesting subject in itself. I went to Reading v Palace (pre season friendly) at the Madejski in the summer of 2018.

The programme sellers were selling an item for 1
It was a 'fold out' poster type thing. It had various Reading FC information in it, the fixture list, a team picture, details of the new replica kits on sale, details of the summer courses. But no info on the visitors Crystal Palace, no squad lists, no referee details, so in my opinion a teamsheet would be more of a programme than it was. The only think that excuses it as a programme was the fixture details on the front 'cover'!!
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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:29 pm 
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Herewith a rare postponed programme from my own personal collection..

Chelsea v Wolves 9.12.67.
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Overseastour



Joined: 28 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:46 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Wolves postponed
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Hi Kilfie,
The Chelsea v Wolves programme pic looks very small...I guess you mean this very rare CFC programme pictured below?

At less than half a dozen known copies in existence (at most) this one would definitely be hitting the 5,000 mark.... should one ever appear on sale.

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kilfie58



Joined: 20 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:01 pm 
Post subject: Re: Chelsea v Wolves postponed
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Overseastour wrote:
Hi Kilfie,
The Chelsea v Wolves programme pic looks very small...I guess you mean this very rare CFC programme pictured below?

At less than half a dozen known copies in existence (at most) this one would definitely be hitting the 5,000 mark.... should one ever appear on sale.



Thanks overseastour..

Sorry.. My cock up with the pic..
Yes that's the one.
The copy I tried to post is in near mint. I'm very fortunate to own it.




Best wishes

Kilfie58
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PaulRStoke



Joined: 01 Jan 2012
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Location: Stoke-on-Trent

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm 
Post subject: Chelsea v Stoke City 1969/70 postponed
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Stoke City. 28.12.68 should be 28.12.69

I had to go and double check as I knew I had the 1969/70 postponed but not the 68/69.


kilfie58 wrote:
For all who wonder... Here is the complete list of Chelsea home postponed games and programmes, 1946-74. There are 3, not known to exist (to my knowledge).

Middlesbrough 8.2.47 (no known programme)
Portsmouth. 12.2.46 (no known programme)
Liverpool 6.12.52
Luton T. 29.12.62
Stoke City. 1.1.63 (no known programme)
Leeds Utd. 2.2.63
Portsmouth. 16.2.63
Portsmouth. 20.2.63
Sunderland. 20.11.65
Blackburn. 18.12.65
Barcelona. 20.4.66
Wolves. 9.12.67
Liverpool. 13.1. 68
Stoke City. 28.12.68
Stoke City. 29.11.68
Liverpool. 14.2.70
Burnley. 6.2.74
Sheffield Utd. 23.11.74

Best wishes
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