Football Programmes Centre

Help with an old, pre-WW1 England team photo sought!
AlbumAlbum   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   My Wants ListMy Wants List   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Help with an old, pre-WW1 England team photo sought!
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Football Programme Forum Index -> Your Football Programme Collection
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:41 pm 
Post subject: Help with an old, pre-WW1 England team photo sought!
Reply with quote

Hi All,

I've just acquired this pre-World War One postcard hereunder and would like to clear up exactly which England team is pictured and their opoonent too if possible - can anyone assist please?

What I think I know so far is that it is the England team from the 1908 or 1909 tour to Hungary (the printed text on the back is in Hungarian and states it was printed in 1911). The home team doesn't have the Hungarian national team badge on the players' jerseys though and I can't find mention of any unofficial or gala matches against any other teams, so I'm stumped for now.

Any help much appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete’s Picture Palace
Forum Moderator


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 4215
Location: Wallington Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:24 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Very interesting photo, Matt. How's your Hungarian?

Just been reading up on the 2 tours made by the England team in 1908 and 09.

They played these games in 1908:-

v Austria, in Vienna, 6th June 1908 - won 6-1
v Austria, in Vienna, 8th June 1908 - won 11-1
v Hungary, in Budapest, 10th June 1908 - won 7-0 (att 25,000)
v Bohemia (or a Prague XI), in Prague, 13th June 1908 - won 4-0

George Hilsdon scored 8 goals in 3 games and Vivian Woodward scored 6 goals in 4 games. Frank Bradshaw of Sheff Weds scored a hat-trick in his one appearance (in Vienna, 8th June).

They played these games in 1909:-

v Hungary, in Budapest, 29th May 1909 - won 4-2
v Hungary, in Budapest, 31st May 1909 - won 8-2
v Austria, in Vienna, 1st June 1909 - won 8-1.

Woodward scored 9 of those goals, George Holley scored 4.

The line-ups for all these matches are on the 11v11 England pages.

A larger scan may help some people to identify a few of the listed players, could you blow up the back row maybe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Wants List
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:36 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

I'm OK - put it this way; I wish my football skills were on a par with my Hungarian!

Thanks for the info so far - here is a blow-up photo - is it enough to shed more light on the matter?

Cheers.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete’s Picture Palace
Forum Moderator


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 4215
Location: Wallington Surrey

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:52 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

One clue is all the players were wearing the same kits so as goalkeepers changed into different kits in 1909 it suggests it was one of those two pre 1911 tours - but which? This could be testing. Who's that giant far right?

Viv Woodward



George Hilsdon



George Holley



This may help some FPC detectives. I'm hopeless at facial recognition.

Sherlock
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Wants List
nutfield priory



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:04 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote



Viv Woodward in England in 1906[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:23 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Based on that pic, if someone told me Vivien Woodward was James Milner's great, great grandad, I wouldn't be surprised...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DonQuixote2



Joined: 05 Jun 2017
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:24 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Ha ha..I was just about to suggest John Terry before I read your post...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Westbourne



Joined: 17 Oct 2017
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

CORINTHIANS ??

During 'The Split', the 1907–1914 dispute about professional clubs being admitted to membership of the country Football Associations, Corinthian F.C. pledged its allegiance to the Amateur Football Alliance, as did Oxford University and Cambridge University. Corinthian therefore, banned from playing top home opposition by The FA, increased the frequency of their foreign tours; "Corinthian FC had little option but to concentrate on their [footballing] missionary work overseas and of the 131 matches played before 'The Split' was resolved in January 1914, 72 were played abroad".[1]
Among others, Real Madrid were inspired to adopt Corinthian's strip while Sport Club Corinthians Paulista in Brazil and Zejtun Corinthians in Malta adopted their name. After a visit to Sweden in 1904, a Swedish tournament called the Corinthian Bowl was set up in commemoration.
Their tours included South Africa, Canada, the United States, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Denmark, Holland, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, Brazil, Ireland, Jamaica and Germany.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete’s Picture Palace
Forum Moderator


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 4215
Location: Wallington Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:39 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

This is Corinthians in 1896/7 (also from Wikipedia), their shirt badge is very similar to England's, though it is a decade earlier.



This is the only known England kit before WW1 when players were expected to supply their own navy blue knickers!



We need to find out if the Corinthian tour to Hungary was pre 1911.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Wants List
Pete’s Picture Palace
Forum Moderator


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 4215
Location: Wallington Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:02 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

That didn't take long......... good old Google.

1904 - Hungary Tour

In Easter 1904 the Corinthians visited Hungary for their first tour on mainland Europe. It only came about ironically after G.O.Smith and W.J. Oakley's attempt to organise a American tour collapsed. So on the recommendation of the Oxford and Cambridge University teams who had both visited Hungary, it was decided that it would be better than a west of England tour. The first match in Budapest played before a large crowd was against Magyar Testakortok and resulted in an easy 6-0 victory. This was followed by a 9-0 thrashing of Budapesti Torna Club and bettered still by a 12-0 win over Magyar Athletikai Club. After these games the club departed for Vienna. It has to be remembered that at this time Vienna like most of modern Austria, was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at this time. Vienna were beaten 7-1 before the club moved onto Prague. The Slavia F.C. were encountered twice and beaten 7-4 and 4-1, they were much stronger opposition that the previous games, having played the game longer than those elsewhere. The final game of the tour was against Verein fur Bewegungs in Leipzig and despite only having twelve fit players a 4-1 victory resulted.

Tour Members: B.O. Corbett, W.J.H. Curwen, S.H. Day, H.A. Lowe, L.J. Moon, M. Morgan-Owen, W.J. Oakley, G.O. Smith, W.U. Timmis, G.C. Vassall, H. Vickers, G.E. Wilkinson, I.G. Witherington, O.E. Wreford-Brown

April 1904 Hungary
2 Magyar
4 Testgyarkortok
5 Budapesti Tourna Club
7 Magyar Athletikai


This is Corinthians also in 1904 from their tour to Scandinavia - busy boys!

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Wants List
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:59 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Is it just me, or do none of the faces seen elsewhere match up with faces in on my postcard? Sad Confused Sherlock
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paulobee



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:47 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

England Amateurs?

But they didn't travel to Hungary afaik. But they did play Hungary in the 1912 Olympics as Great Britian. A possible?

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/MatchRsl/MatchRslAm.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Westbourne



Joined: 17 Oct 2017
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:12 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Why would they match up the one photo is 1904 and the othet 1911
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pete’s Picture Palace
Forum Moderator


Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 4215
Location: Wallington Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:22 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Westbourne wrote:
Why would they match up the one photo is 1904 and the othet 1911


The card was printed in 1911 but the team is either 1908 or 09.

Surely one or two faces would be similar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Wants List
Kvaratschelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:17 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

There is a photo of the 1908 game in Hungary here: http://gottfriedfuchs.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/england-european-tour-1908.html

So that rules out your photo from that particular match.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 am 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Yes, you're right, it's certainly not from that match. The question is would there have been any unofficial match the England team might also have played on that tour in Hungary (I ask this bearing in mind the opponent is not wearing Hungary national-team shirts)?

The same question applies for the 1909 tour. If the answer is No and the team would only have played official matches against the host national team, the question would then be which other 'English' team could pictured here.

I guess until someone recognises some of the players in the postcard, it may remain a mystery...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kvaratschelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:58 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Can you reproduce the text on the back of the card?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheMusic



Joined: 13 Aug 2011
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:50 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Sure, here it is:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kvaratschelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:46 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

Thanks, but I can't actually read the text! The image is too low resolution. I presume the first line is the name and address of the printer, is the second line the caption?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kvaratschelia



Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:34 pm 
Post subject:
Reply with quote

I've found the same photo on this Hungarian football forum. They think it is the English Wanderers team against a Hungarian select in 1911:

https://www.magyarfutball.hu/hu/merkozesek/1908-06-10/magyarorszag-anglia

English Wanderers had a 'three lions' type badge, so that fits.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
| More
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Football Programme Forum Index -> Your Football Programme Collection All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum