Help with an old, pre-WW1 England team photo sought! |
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TheMusic
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 533
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:41 pm
Post subject: Help with an old, pre-WW1 England team photo sought! |
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Hi All,
I've just acquired this pre-World War One postcard hereunder and would like to clear up exactly which England team is pictured and their opoonent too if possible - can anyone assist please?
What I think I know so far is that it is the England team from the 1908 or 1909 tour to Hungary (the printed text on the back is in Hungarian and states it was printed in 1911). The home team doesn't have the Hungarian national team badge on the players' jerseys though and I can't find mention of any unofficial or gala matches against any other teams, so I'm stumped for now.
Any help much appreciated! Thanks in advance.
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:24 pm
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Very interesting photo, Matt. How's your Hungarian?
Just been reading up on the 2 tours made by the England team in 1908 and 09.
They played these games in 1908:-
v Austria, in Vienna, 6th June 1908 - won 6-1
v Austria, in Vienna, 8th June 1908 - won 11-1
v Hungary, in Budapest, 10th June 1908 - won 7-0 (att 25,000)
v Bohemia (or a Prague XI), in Prague, 13th June 1908 - won 4-0
George Hilsdon scored 8 goals in 3 games and Vivian Woodward scored 6 goals in 4 games. Frank Bradshaw of Sheff Weds scored a hat-trick in his one appearance (in Vienna, 8th June).
They played these games in 1909:-
v Hungary, in Budapest, 29th May 1909 - won 4-2
v Hungary, in Budapest, 31st May 1909 - won 8-2
v Austria, in Vienna, 1st June 1909 - won 8-1.
Woodward scored 9 of those goals, George Holley scored 4.
The line-ups for all these matches are on the 11v11 England pages.
A larger scan may help some people to identify a few of the listed players, could you blow up the back row maybe? |
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TheMusic
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 533
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:36 pm
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I'm OK - put it this way; I wish my football skills were on a par with my Hungarian!
Thanks for the info so far - here is a blow-up photo - is it enough to shed more light on the matter?
Cheers.
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:52 pm
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One clue is all the players were wearing the same kits so as goalkeepers changed into different kits in 1909 it suggests it was one of those two pre 1911 tours - but which? This could be testing. Who's that giant far right?
Viv Woodward
George Hilsdon
George Holley
This may help some FPC detectives. I'm hopeless at facial recognition.
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nutfield priory
Joined: 20 Oct 2014 Posts: 187
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TheMusic
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 533
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:23 pm
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Based on that pic, if someone told me Vivien Woodward was James Milner's great, great grandad, I wouldn't be surprised... |
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DonQuixote2
Joined: 05 Jun 2017 Posts: 62
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:24 pm
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Ha ha..I was just about to suggest John Terry before I read your post... |
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Westbourne
Joined: 17 Oct 2017 Posts: 91
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 am
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CORINTHIANS ??
During 'The Split', the 1907–1914 dispute about professional clubs being admitted to membership of the country Football Associations, Corinthian F.C. pledged its allegiance to the Amateur Football Alliance, as did Oxford University and Cambridge University. Corinthian therefore, banned from playing top home opposition by The FA, increased the frequency of their foreign tours; "Corinthian FC had little option but to concentrate on their [footballing] missionary work overseas and of the 131 matches played before 'The Split' was resolved in January 1914, 72 were played abroad".[1]
Among others, Real Madrid were inspired to adopt Corinthian's strip while Sport Club Corinthians Paulista in Brazil and Zejtun Corinthians in Malta adopted their name. After a visit to Sweden in 1904, a Swedish tournament called the Corinthian Bowl was set up in commemoration.
Their tours included South Africa, Canada, the United States, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Denmark, Holland, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, Brazil, Ireland, Jamaica and Germany. |
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:39 am
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This is Corinthians in 1896/7 (also from Wikipedia), their shirt badge is very similar to England's, though it is a decade earlier.
This is the only known England kit before WW1 when players were expected to supply their own navy blue knickers!
We need to find out if the Corinthian tour to Hungary was pre 1911. |
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:02 am
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That didn't take long......... good old Google.
1904 - Hungary Tour
In Easter 1904 the Corinthians visited Hungary for their first tour on mainland Europe. It only came about ironically after G.O.Smith and W.J. Oakley's attempt to organise a American tour collapsed. So on the recommendation of the Oxford and Cambridge University teams who had both visited Hungary, it was decided that it would be better than a west of England tour. The first match in Budapest played before a large crowd was against Magyar Testakortok and resulted in an easy 6-0 victory. This was followed by a 9-0 thrashing of Budapesti Torna Club and bettered still by a 12-0 win over Magyar Athletikai Club. After these games the club departed for Vienna. It has to be remembered that at this time Vienna like most of modern Austria, was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at this time. Vienna were beaten 7-1 before the club moved onto Prague. The Slavia F.C. were encountered twice and beaten 7-4 and 4-1, they were much stronger opposition that the previous games, having played the game longer than those elsewhere. The final game of the tour was against Verein fur Bewegungs in Leipzig and despite only having twelve fit players a 4-1 victory resulted.
Tour Members: B.O. Corbett, W.J.H. Curwen, S.H. Day, H.A. Lowe, L.J. Moon, M. Morgan-Owen, W.J. Oakley, G.O. Smith, W.U. Timmis, G.C. Vassall, H. Vickers, G.E. Wilkinson, I.G. Witherington, O.E. Wreford-Brown
April 1904 Hungary
2 Magyar
4 Testgyarkortok
5 Budapesti Tourna Club
7 Magyar Athletikai
This is Corinthians also in 1904 from their tour to Scandinavia - busy boys!
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TheMusic
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 533
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:59 pm
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paulobee
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 161
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Westbourne
Joined: 17 Oct 2017 Posts: 91
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:12 pm
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Why would they match up the one photo is 1904 and the othet 1911 |
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:22 pm
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Westbourne wrote: |
Why would they match up the one photo is 1904 and the othet 1911 |
The card was printed in 1911 but the team is either 1908 or 09.
Surely one or two faces would be similar. |
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Kvaratschelia
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Posts: 48
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TheMusic
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 533
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 am
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Yes, you're right, it's certainly not from that match. The question is would there have been any unofficial match the England team might also have played on that tour in Hungary (I ask this bearing in mind the opponent is not wearing Hungary national-team shirts)?
The same question applies for the 1909 tour. If the answer is No and the team would only have played official matches against the host national team, the question would then be which other 'English' team could pictured here.
I guess until someone recognises some of the players in the postcard, it may remain a mystery... |
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Kvaratschelia
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 Posts: 48
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:58 pm
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Can you reproduce the text on the back of the card? |
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TheMusic
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Kvaratschelia
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:46 pm
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Thanks, but I can't actually read the text! The image is too low resolution. I presume the first line is the name and address of the printer, is the second line the caption? |
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Kvaratschelia
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