Can Anyone Help at all?.Scotland/Brentford et al 1946

[manchesterunitedman1]

I have this original press photograph of some Manchester United players in training which is estimated is in 1946.

One of the United players is Jimmy Delaney who was a Scottish International player.

On the reverse of the photo are some signatures of the Scotland team that was to play Wales at Wrexham.

I am finding it difficult to determine 2 off the signatues:

top left W. Buchan or Buchanan Ashfield FC? and the very bottom of the page where it is signed for by a Brentford FC Player.

A little research shows there was a Brentford player who played for Scotland in 1947 as Archibald Renwick Macauley but this bottom signature does not look anything like that name IMO.

Also there is in the middle a large signature of a John Downie whao although being a Scot never played for the national side but he was a team mate of Delaney at United.

It seems the photo belonged to Delaney originally who got the others to sign.

These are the details of that Wales-Scotland 1946 match:

(Match 191) 19th October 1946 (52nd Home International Championship)
WALES - SCOTLAND 3-1 (0-0)
Referee: William H.Evans (England)
Crowd: 29.568, The Racecourse Ground, Wrexham
Goals: 0-1 Waddell (49) penalty, 1-1 B.Jones (52), 2-1 Ford (79), 3-1 Stephen (8 own goal
WALES:
Cyril Sidlow - Raymond Lambert, William Marshall Hughes [c] - Douglas F.Witcombe, Thomas George Jones,
William Arthur (Ronald) Burgess - Ernest Jones, Aubrey Powell, Trevor Ford, Brynmor Jones, George Edwards.

SCOTLAND:
William Miller (1/Celtic) -
James Findlay Stephen [c] (1/Bradford City)
David Shaw (2/Hibernian) -
Hugh Brown (1/Partick Thistle)
Frank Brennan (2/Newcastle United)
John (Jackie) Husband (2/Partick Thistle) -
William Waddell (2/Rangers)
Cornelius (Neil) Dougall (1/Birmingham City)
William Thornton (2/Rangers)
James Alfred Blair (1/Blackpool)
William Beveridge Liddell (2/Liverpool)




Any help would be really appreciated!


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[Tynie Topics]

Ashfield are a Glasgow Junior club that still play today, and according to their history book, they had a Buchanan playing for them in 1946.

[manchesterunitedman1]

Tynie Topics wrote:

Ashfield are a Glasgow Junior club that still play today, and according to their history book, they had a Buchanan playing for them in 1946.

Hi Graham

That is just the sort of information needed but the burning question is if he did not play in that game or was ever called up for the National side-why was he there?, the signature looks that of a mature man-could he have been a trainor or coach on the backroom staff for Scotland?

Many Thanks
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[Tynie Topics]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

Hi Graham That is just the sort of information needed but the burning question is if he did not play in that game or was ever called up for the National side-why was he there?, the signature looks that of a mature man-could he have been a trainor or coach on the backroom staff for Scotland? Many Thanks

He was definitely a player for Ashfield for season 1946/47, I don't think anyone of that name was capped by Scotland around that time, and it certainly wouldn't have been when he was at a Junior club. I doubt he would have been there in the capacity of trainer or backroom staff, although in the pic he doesn't look a youngster.

Perhaps he was friends with one of the Scotland players and travelled down for the match, and ended up signing the photograph? In those days, almost all of the Scotland team would have had their first experience of semi-pro adult football via Junior clubs. Delaney certainly started out in Junior football with Stoneyburn (a club only a few miles from me).

I'll have another rummage tonight to see if anything else comes up.

[Texas Rangers]

Hi Leslie.

Brentford had 3 Scottish internationalists on their books that season. Malky McDonald, George Patterson and Archie MacAulay. That looks more like it could be Patterson who although he didn't play in that game , may have been in the squad. He had two caps for Scotland, his first against Northern Ireland in 1938 and his second against Belgium in January 1946. So he was there or thereabouts at the time of the Wales game.

MacAulay played 7 times for Scotland, his debut in April 1947 and his last game in May 1948 but I agree it's not his signature.

Remarkably, according to the Londonhearts website, there have only been four Buchanans who have been capped for Scotland and none were in that period which may lead some credence to the possibility he was there as a spectator.

[manchesterunitedman1]

Texas Rangers wrote:

Hi Leslie. Brentford had 3 Scottish internationalists on their books that season. Malky McDonald, George Patterson and Archie MacAulay. That looks more like it could be Patterson who although he didn't play in that game , may have been in the squad. He had two caps for Scotland, his first against Northern Ireland in 1938 and his second against Belgium in January 1946. So he was there or thereabouts at the time of the Wales game.

Hi Texas

I think you are spot on with that! which leaves the anomaly of Mr.Buchanan but suspect that he was a pal of some of the other Scottish players and went down for the ride.

Good to be able to ask questions and tap into the incredible wealth of knowledge on this forum.

I have been on others and unless it is all bout the current topics no one has much interest in anything prior to a few seasons back, this is without a doubt the best of the best there is!

Kind Regards

Leslie
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[Eck]

The term "Junior football" can be confusing not only to those outside of Scotland but also to people who don't follow any of the clubs here. "Junior" refers to football outside the major leagues rather than youth football which the title would appear to suggest.

[Eck]

It looks like Buchan of Ashfield, the only Buchan who ever played for Scotland was Martin.

[Eck]

I see Tiger Jock Shaw's (John Shaw) in the top one

[manchesterunitedman1]

Eck wrote:

I see Tiger Jock Shaw's (John Shaw) in the top one

Hi Eck

Thanks for taking the time to reply-much appreciated!

I was unaware of this but once Martin Buchan lived on my street-i saw him running one day early in the morning[after he finished playing] and the look he gave me as he went past was that he had trodden in some shite and i was the cause of it-what a miserable twat and i heard many times over the years that is just what he is by all accounts.

I think a lot of those players who were big time Charlies and earned a £2000-3000 a week when mere mortals such as us were getting £150-200 quid are so peed off with the likes of young kids getting started on anything between 10-20k a WEEK and they in their late 50's and early 60's have not got a pot to pee in-i do not have any sympathy they had the chance to put really good cash away each week but they all thought they could live forever-not in the real world you can't, another total potless misery is Geoff Hurst who has lived off that one game for the last 50 years- do not dislike him for no other reason that he "forgets" where he came from[Ashton in Manchester] Jimmy Greaves was a far better player in every respect but it was not meant to be.


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Leslie Millman
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[Eck]

Aye Leslie, most are ok but some have the "smell shite" expression on their faces when mere mortals dare to speak to them.

[Tynie Topics]

Tynie Topics wrote:

He was definitely a player for Ashfield for season 1946/47, I don't think anyone of that name was capped by Scotland around that time, and it certainly wouldn't have been when he was at a Junior club. I doubt he would have been there in the capacity of trainer or backroom staff, although in the pic he doesn't look a youngster. Perhaps he was friends with one of the Scotland players and travelled down for the match, and ended up signing the photograph? In those days, almost all of the Scotland team would have had their first experience of semi-pro adult football via Junior clubs. Delaney certainly started out in Junior football with Stoneyburn (a club only a few miles from me). I'll have another rummage tonight to see if anything else comes up.

OK I don't think we're dealing with a player who progressed beyond his non-league career.

There is no Buchanan associated with Ashfield who went on to play league football in Scotland at that time. Barrow singed a William Buchanan in 1949 but I cant ascertain from which club. That appears to be the only Buchanan in English football at that time.

So my best guess was that in 1946 this chap played for Ashfield and was a friend of one of the Scotland party and was present when the picture was being passed round for signature.

[Eck]

Tynie Topics wrote:

Tynie Topics wrote: He was definitely a player for Ashfield for season 1946/47, I don't think anyone of that name was capped by Scotland around that time, and it certainly wouldn't have been when he was at a Junior club. I doubt he would have been there in the capacity of trainer or backroom staff, although in the pic he doesn't look a youngster. Perhaps he was friends with one of the Scotland players and travelled down for the match, and ended up signing the photograph? In those days, almost all of the Scotland team would have had their first experience of semi-pro adult football via Junior clubs. Delaney certainly started out in Junior football with Stoneyburn (a club only a few miles from me). I'll have another rummage tonight to see if anything else comes up. OK I don't think we're dealing with a player who progressed beyond his non-league career. There is no Buchanan associated with Ashfield who went on to play league football in Scotland at that time. Barrow singed a William Buchanan in 1949 but I cant ascertain from which club. That appears to be the only Buchanan in English football at that time. So my best guess was that in 1946 this chap played for Ashfield and was a friend of one of the Scotland party and was present when the picture was being passed round for signature.

I was thinking along the same lines, maybe a friend of one of the players who started out together, one made the big time and one never probably a common occurrence in todays game as well.