Manchester City pre-war collection

[tommy]

Just seen this lot coming up next month at A F Brock Auctioneers

Lot 773

Collection of early MCFC / Manchester City Football Club Blue & White Official Programmes, home games from 1923 to 1938, inc., match v Stoke City on 3/3/34, this had Matt Busby playing for City & Stanley Matthews for Stoke, mostly intact but quite a few have signs of wear, some damaged with covers torn off, staples rusted (approx. 235 programmes) Care! High International Shipping Charges Apply

Estimate: £500 - £600

Slightly under estimated.

[colchestersid]

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en.....hitem=true

[WHU2711]

A very nice collection, I cannot imagine if it went to one of the main football auction sites that it would be listed this way, it would probably be booked as many separate lots.
I guess there is a chance the auctioneer may withdraw it and list it properly but if not where would you guess the finishing price, 235 programmes between 1923 and 1938 even at £20 each is pushing £5,000 and that without knowing if there are any specials

[silkman1]

Brocks are local here and are not really associated with football programmes - they do however have some decent auctions but not sports orientated.

[bisphamseasider]

This could be rather annoying for a City collector who might have hoped this one would have slipped under the radar with it being a fairly unknown auction house.

Any serious collectors would obviously have to view these programmes before bidding because it is not clear how many may have had their covers 'torn off' or are in poor condition.

Still, a great collection no doubt, and I imagine the estimation is based purely based on the condition.

[pafcprogs]

Heard from the auctioneer...they have had loads of interest and they a re producing a full list which they will send to me and I will post on here...Sadly unlikely to be of much interest to Plymouth Argyle..just the 38?9 season in play

Peter
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Currently disposing of my collection so please email any wants lists to [email protected].
Most Plymouth post 1959 but plenty of others including reserves, friendlies, Cup Finals Internationals and Club issues, handbooks and other sports.

[mcfc56]

tommy wrote:

Just seen this lot coming up next month at A F Brock Auctioneers Lot 773 Collection of early MCFC / Manchester City Football Club Blue & White Official Programmes, home games from 1923 to 1938, inc., match v Stoke City on 3/3/34, this had Matt Busby playing for City & Stanley Matthews for Stoke, mostly intact but quite a few have signs of wear, some damaged with covers torn off, staples rusted (approx. 235 programmes) Care! High International Shipping Charges Apply Estimate: £500 - £600 Slightly under estimated.

The match in question attracted the record English attendance for a club's home game - 84,569 including my grandfather and my mother.

I'm not surprised they've had some interest - if they'd split them into smaller lots I might have put in a bid for one but as it stands the likely cost would be way out of my league.

[treble99]

the only place this is going to is a dealer

There are no Manchester City collectors any more now that two main collectors are out of the game
There are even a few of these programmes that have no collectors f either club

Even so to suggest an average of £20 a programme is just daft
Even the Sheffield Clubs and Arsenal and Chelsea for whom pre wars are mostly easy to find will expect more than £20 a programme unless they are completely ruthed

Expect an average of nearer £50 a programme assuming half decent condition

As such you are north of £10k
As i say less if they are shit and more if they include odd ball games or games against collected clubs

I am not sure why people are scratching round and hoping to get one or possibly streching to £50 for two
Next we will have as we've had before ie deals and cartels
They never come off on this forum

Tim to leave this thread until the auction and then be amazed at how much is goes for and slaughter the buyer as being mad

[Wullie]

That is serious money. I bet every single one of us would love to plough through that lot. If this collection hits the market , like the recent QPR and Sunderland pre wars, I'd expect prices to drop quite a bit ... unless they end up as Bins for silly money, then expect to see them around for years to come.
I agree with Treble. There don't seem to be any serious City collectors .

[derby1884]

Wullie wrote:

. I agree with Treble. There don't seem to be any serious City collectors .

I wonder how many serious programme collectors there are in total nowadays, given how few bids there seem to be on EBay (relative to the number of items on there), lack of fairs, catalogues etc.

Are there any serious Liverpool collectors? Another club who never seem to be represented on, for instance, this forum.
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[Pete’s Picture Palace]

City v Palace FAC 1926, result 11-4 to City. I saw that prog go for well over £200 in Sports Progs (I think) maybe 5 years ago. I'd love it but 235 progs are a tad beyond me.

I know press photos are different to programmes but I can't really sell Man City or Liverpool photos, even Cup Final goals going in, captains with trophies. I won't give them away, I remain hopeful that new buyers turn up buoyed by the clubs' recent successes.

Only today a "new" collector on a Palace thread posted that he was looking to start collecting pre-1950 CPFC programmes. We all live in hope that this is mirrored across the country.

[bisphamseasider]

derby1884 wrote:

Are there any serious Liverpool collectors? Another club who never seem to be represented on, for instance, this forum.

There certainly was about 4 or 5 years ago when I listed some Blackpool reserves against Liverpool.

I could not believe how much they went for.

Thinking about it now, I don't recall coming across the same buyers recently.

[treble99]

There are serious collectors for most clubs when it comes to quality items

Most are not on this forum as the majority of this forum is at the 50p to £2 a programme

just look at the for sale programmes on here.
Most are a couple of quid including postage on a good day

This forum has actually become a bit of a programme fair where dealers stay in touch just in case somebody has something of quality to sell or a newbie with a couple of hundred quid turns up and dead stock is moved on

Everything else is members not believing the prices achieved at auctions and calling people idiots
That's another way of saying i'm a bit skint at the moment mate

I've watched quality collections and bound volumes going for the right money recently to collectors as opposed to dealers and everybody is happy

The seller who cashes in,the buyer who gets what he wants and often moves the rest on for good prices and this forums members many of whom think an overpayment has been made

That's why this is a good hobby

everybody is happy

[Wullie]

it's a strange term "serious collectors ". Basically meaning two or more collectors of a certain team who are willing to pay massive amounts for unusual/ rare items hence pushing prices up to astronomical levels.
I think we can all agree Manchester United , Chelsea and Spurs amongst those. Sunderland until a few years ago could be put in to that group ( lucky for me no longer) Leeds probably another. Surprisingly, City and Liverpool not so. My opinion. Any ideas ???

[treble99]

not that strange a term i think

The hobby has divided itself into layers

There are serious collectors for most clubs
By that i mean collectors,often low profile,who are after top top items only
Let's face it Spurs pre wars are not that hard to get but get something special and watch top collectors fight
None of them post on this forum as most of the time this forum concerns itself with 50p to £2 items

I have contacts at the top level for Bristol City,Chelsea,Wolves,Youth cup in general,Arsenal,Oxford,Leicester City,Northern Ireland,LIVERPOOL,Watford,Leeds,Spurs,Huddersfield to name but some

If you think Sunderland has "gone" i think you might find you do have opposition although i take your point on City
They are now down to fiver at most collectors which is actually a bit strange considering the money swishing round the club

[kcs]

An interesting post Treble, what determines a serious collector?

Are these collectors that have collections on par with your collection? In which case I would assume that these guys make up a small percentage of collectors?

Or are they collectors that spend a large amount of time and amount of money (as a large percentage of their modest income) looking for post war league and cup issues?

I guess the reason why this forum attracts the low end of the market is because they are a more common bread of collector. I'm sure most of the big players watch this forum and I'm sure if a rare pre war smaller club versus bigger club (with a serious collector) was offered on here and needed by the big guys then I'm certain a pm would be made.

The man city lot will be very interesting indeed.
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[Tynie Topics]

Can you only ever become a "serious collector" if you have a seriously large wad of cash to throw at your collection?

I'd consider myself a serious collector, have pushed the boat out a few times, but have never had a large wad in reserve to spend at the drop of a hat and never likely to either.

That's why I re-use envelopes.

So, cash = serious? All sounds a bit elitist to be honest.
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[treble99]

In hindsight the use of the word "serious" is probably the wrong word but elitist is not

A serious collector probably should be defined a one who puts a lot of time and effort in and spends a lot of his available income

Elitist are the lucky few who can afford to and do pay more
They are both then serious and elitist

What amuses me is the number of collectors at the "lower end" of the market who constantly bitch at the amount paid for very very rare programmes

Those that pay up are considered mad by many on this forum which i suppose is the reverse of elitist when the pure call the richer mad

[Auchinleckian]

I consider myself a serious collector. Would I pay a grand for a programme though? No, far better things to spend it on. Don't begrudge those who do though, but when you see some of the lunacy that abounds with Chelsea programmes a few years back, and now Chelsea tickets and photos of Peter Bonetti, I doubt their sanity.

We must not forget though that people who are looking not to spend more than few pounds on a programme are doing so probably because it's the only disposable income they have. It's when your kids have flown the nest, maybe paid the mortgage off that you can indulge yourself in your hobbies and they will probably make up the big spending clients in the future as they try to close the gaps in their collection.

I love picking up programmes on ebay for a couple of quid, see the 47-8 Doncaster vs Barrow that I picked up for £1.41 this week and showed on here. I get far more pleasure out of that than I do chasing elusive programmes, and I suppose that's the difference as I've always been a collector who doesn't have to have something when it immediately comes on the market, and am always willing to wait untilt he price comes down as it always does once one or two people are out of the equation. To me, that makes far more sense than paying over the odds because "I've got to have it"

Programme collecting is an anorakky pursuit, let's face it. Are we really saying I'm a more serious geek than the next person?

[Tynie Topics]

As John alludes to, the “fiver collector” is every bit as important to the hobby as the “elite collector”, every elite collector was a fiver collector once, we all have to start somewhere [ok, there may be a few exceptions]. Also as treble points out, some clubs only have “fiver collectors” because their club is perhaps not in demand as Man Utd or Chelsea, so can Hartlepool or Arbroath collectors ever ascend the ladder to eliteness given they are unlikely to need to spend out £1,500 for a programme very often?

It should all be about helping and not sneering at each other regardless of the level you collect at or the disposal income you have access to as we’re not all created equal, but then given this is a very individualistic and secretive hobby, almost reclusive and definitely egotistical in many cases, you do encounter some strange fowk. On the other hand maybe all collecting hobbies are like that.

Train spotting is probably a more sociably inclusive pastime! [that’s a guess, I have never spotted trains….]
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