shefield auction gallery nov 2nd |
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kcs
Joined: 29 Dec 2008 Posts: 1655 Location: Ashford, Kent
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:00 am
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I watched the auction online and bid for a few items, only being successful on one item which contained one programme.
The programme cost £90 my choice so no complaints...
Buyers premium and VAT costing £22.14... an expected cost albeit 'hidden'.
My biggest gripe - postage and packaging £12.05!!
Received the invoice and paid within the stated time so didn't incur 'storage' costs... on a positive it was sent as a special delivery.
When I paid for the programme over the phone, they said they would sort postage out but didn't state the cost!!
Not sure I will be using these guys again!!
A £90 that has additional costs of £34.19!! _________________ Nuts and Bolts Web Design
https://www.nutsandboltsarchive.co.uk/portfolio.php
Showcase your collection in an online programme guide!
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Goalsandwickets
Joined: 12 May 2012 Posts: 264 Location: Oldham, Greater Manchester
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:54 am
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I don't have a problem with their commission charges but I'm a bit perplexed by auction houses charges on postage / packing as these seems to be high in a number of cases.
If the justification is that they are including a small portion of their overheads in every p/p charge, I can understand this but many examples just seem way too much.
While on Ebay, we are allowed to include a handling component to our p/p charges (whether in a free postage item or not), those that 'pad' the charges will get scored down on DSR's pretty quickly.
I've agreed with Andy at Football Sports Auctions to send me a package I bought online (I was willing to drive over and collect) and the charges were certainly nothing to raise any eyebrows about - very reasonable. |
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martino
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 2166 Location: Beautiful downtown Goostrey, Cheshire
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:27 pm
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Goalsandwickets wrote: |
While on Ebay, we are allowed to include a handling component to our p/p charges (whether in a free postage item or not), those that 'pad' the charges will get scored down on DSR's pretty quickly.
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How can you charge a handling component in free delivery? As you say, anyone overcharging for delivery will be rated down.
I only do free delivery on E Bay and load the starting price to reflect this. My sales percentage is about the same as when I charged 80 pence for delivery in a board backed envelope and even then I got low ratings for delivery charges from some buyers!
E Bay should make free delivery compulsory in the majority of categories.
As regards Auction House delivery charges I also got stung by Sheffield. I tried to be philosophical and say that I paid £50 but would have gone to £60, so delivery only cost me £3. I paid online on Sunday and got the programme Special Delivery on Tuesday. Like all businesses they have their overheads in stationery, staff to pack and address and, I assume, take to the Post Office where a guaranteed service is used. Obviously, they also include a profit element. Overall it was still cheaper than petrol costs there and back. |
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Goalsandwickets
Joined: 12 May 2012 Posts: 264 Location: Oldham, Greater Manchester
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:47 pm
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martino wrote: |
Goalsandwickets wrote: |
While on Ebay, we are allowed to include a handling component to our p/p charges (whether in a free postage item or not), those that 'pad' the charges will get scored down on DSR's pretty quickly.
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How can you charge a handling component in free delivery? As you say, anyone overcharging for delivery will be rated down.
I only do free delivery on E Bay and load the starting price to reflect this. My sales percentage is about the same as when I charged 80 pence for delivery in a board backed envelope and even then I got low ratings for delivery charges from some buyers!
E Bay should make free delivery compulsory in the majority of categories.
As regards Auction House delivery charges I also got stung by Sheffield. I tried to be philosophical and say that I paid £50 but would have gone to £60, so delivery only cost me £3. I paid online on Sunday and got the programme Special Delivery on Tuesday. Like all businesses they have their overheads in stationery, staff to pack and address and, I assume, take to the Post Office where a guaranteed service is used. Obviously, they also include a profit element. Overall it was still cheaper than petrol costs there and back. |
Good question on handling charges / free delivery.
But isn't it one of those things like Father Xmas not really existing but everyone lets the kids become aware of it, that everyone knows that packaging / handling charges are loaded into the sale price but no-one says so and it's called Free Postage?
Maybe a more accurate term would be something like 'All-inclusive price'?
Ultimately, I suppose that phrase, 'what the market will bare' applies.
If people think a 70's programme in good condition is worth £2.99, either as a 'free postage' item or as a £1.75 + postage item, they'll buy it, If they think £2.50 is more appropriate, then they'll look elsewhere?
Found one seller in a search yesterday selling standard early 60's programmes from a big club for just under £10 (free postage). I would charge significantly less but who am I to tell this seller what to charge?
I wish I could charge that but from my view of the market, I doubt I'd sell a single one (experienced dealers on off Ebay websites would not charge that much). Good luck to them if they do. |
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martino
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 2166 Location: Beautiful downtown Goostrey, Cheshire
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:16 pm
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I was interested in a 1950's programme recently - £3.99 start price plus £5 economy delivery. No I did not bid. |
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Goalsandwickets
Joined: 12 May 2012 Posts: 264 Location: Oldham, Greater Manchester
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:19 pm
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martino wrote: |
I was interested in a 1950's programme recently - £3.99 start price plus £5 economy delivery. No I did not bid. |
Or £8.99 FREE POSTAGE!!!!!!!!!!! |
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martino
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 2166 Location: Beautiful downtown Goostrey, Cheshire
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:21 pm
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Goalsandwickets wrote: |
martino wrote: |
I was interested in a 1950's programme recently - £3.99 start price plus £5 economy delivery. No I did not bid. |
Or £8.99 FREE POSTAGE!!!!!!!!!!! |
Either way it was overpriced. |
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Posh1959
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 1218
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:43 pm
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I too got stung for £12.50 postage from Sheffield, totally over the top, but im still happy with my bargain buy. I usually go to the auction but this time i couldn't make it. Kenny if you want to buy in the future from them and i am going i will text you condition report etc and collect for you on the day as long as you pay over the phone shortly after the lot has been bought and tell them to give me your programes i will post to you at cost. |
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Tynie Topics
Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:25 pm
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I don't use auction houses that much, so anyone care to have a stab at how much extra charges there are (on average) for a programme that sells for say, a £50 hammer price?
I'm talking the money made from the seller as well as the buyer. _________________ https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums |
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Posh1959
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 1218
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:31 pm
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It varies from auction house, the cheapest is Andy Lane's auction 10% sellers commission and 15% buyers so in that example a programme selling for £50 would equate to £12.50 to the auction house. Others can be as high as 20% for seller and 20% for buyer, so the commission earned on a £50 sale would be £20. |
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Tynie Topics
Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:01 pm
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Posh1959 wrote: |
It varies from auction house, the cheapest is Andy Lane's auction 10% sellers commission and 15% buyers so in that example a programme selling for £50 would equate to £12.50 to the auction house. Others can be as high as 20% for seller and 20% for buyer, so the commission earned on a £50 sale would be £20. |
Interesting. I wonder what the "real" cost of selling a single programme is versus total commission earned, same as the "real" cost of handling charges. _________________ https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums |
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Pete’s Picture Palace Forum Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 4223 Location: Wallington Surrey
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:31 pm
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Sportingold - as a buyer, I picked up a 17% charge, plus VAT on that premium, £3 packing, and £7.75 post.
The £10.75 on p&p was cheaper than driving there but it remains to be seen if it was a good decision to go the commission bid route. I should find out tomorrow. |
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Tynie Topics
Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 3509
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Auchinleckian Forum Moderator
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 4352
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:19 pm
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Tynie Topics wrote: |
I guess I still struggle with the concept of the winning bidder having to pay 20% on top of the winning bid. Maybe ebay is clouding my rationale. |
Thing is, it's the way it's always been with auctions until e-bay came along. I always calculate my bids out in advance, with commission involved and only bid up that amount, so a £60 maximum usually means bidding up to £50 when commission's included. Of course, auction houses know full well that the vast majority of people don't do this.
Slightly off topic....I was at a fairly local auction house in Carlisle last week where they have a books ale very 6 weeks. Included in the lots this time were a collection of Workington programmes and memorabilia, and two lots that interested me as they included pre league Reds programmes.
A few other collectors were there, one of whom wanted to know if I'd travelled far for the sale. It's amazing the lengths people will go to try and identify other bidder's ideas! He advised me that he'd left a commission bid for one of the lots, and wasn't interested in the other one. Fair enough, thinks I, means I might end up with one of the lots I wanted. He left shortly afterwards, but came back shortly before the auction started, and then proceded to bid on the lot he said he wasn't interested in! Too much for me after I'd pushed the sale up to nearly £40 per programme. The second lot, on which he'd left his commission bid went up to £190, and when I bid £200 his commission bid had failed so he started bidding manually! He got them for £250, or around £40 per programme again. I wasn't upset, you can't afford to be, but his actions did bewilder me somewhat.
From the same sale...and the old adage caveat emptor. There was a ticket from the Workignton vs Manchester United FAC tie 1957-8. Upon inspection, it was very obvious that it wasn't in great nick, and wholly encased in sellotape. I hope the vendor, who paid £40 for it, was aware of the condition. |
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Goalsandwickets
Joined: 12 May 2012 Posts: 264 Location: Oldham, Greater Manchester
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:57 pm
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Very interesting, John.
My take on all that stuff is to do what you have done; to know what you are going to do and then go and do it.
I am quite happy to discuss interest in lots and discuss their contents but I won't tell other buyers either my strategy or my limits. This is none of their business nor is theirs any of my business.
But maybe all this stuff what makes the auctions fun for some people though?
Perhaps they think they'll influence what others will do like a form of lot management poker?
On the issue of if 20% is high or not, unless we know what type of business model any house is working to or the level of their net profits, I guess we'll never be able to form an informed opinion on if 20% is an appropriate level or not.
Are they making out like bandits or just scraping by or somewhere in the middle?
I sense from what I've picked up about the circumstances behind all the various houses (i.e. big company down to individual operators) that their requirements from their businesses is likely to be wide ranging and personal to each house / company - Bonhams v John Wilson at Methuselah (much missed), for example.
To me, running an auction house looks as if its' space, time and staff heavy and all these things represent cost and in some cases, big cost.
I wouldn't have been trying to be facetious in asking if 20% was too low, not too high.
But this sort of level is an industry norm, give or take, so anyone new coming into it will likely set their prices around those levels, whether they want to or not as if they don't, they'll have a positioning issue.
If the mix of lots is towards the lower amounts, say £25-45, then the house makes a few quid in income (not profit), so I think it's easy to start focusing on the turnover of the hammer price but this is misleading. |
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DannyRoberts
Joined: 29 Apr 2012 Posts: 505 Location: South London
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:42 pm
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Auchinleckian wrote: |
From the same sale...and the old adage caveat emptor. There was a ticket from the Workignton vs Manchester United FAC tie 1957-8. Upon inspection, it was very obvious that it wasn't in great nick, and wholly encased in sellotape. I hope the vendor, who paid £40 for it, was aware of the condition. |
John,
I saw the pictures of those items on the internet. The ticket looked awful in the photo but, to me, the programme looked like a photocopy. Was it the genuine article ? |
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Cantona93
Joined: 18 Oct 2010 Posts: 125
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:00 am
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I believe the programme was withdrawn because of doubts about it being genuine so just the ticket was sold |
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manchesterunitedman1
Joined: 17 Jan 2010 Posts: 3332 Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:10 am
Post subject: sheffield auction |
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I too had a £12.50 or so charge but what peed me off were two things, firstly i was told that i would be informed of the postage costs prior to taking the money which never happened[surprise, surprise] but the other thing is they sent it to me packaged in a piece of cardboard with AMAZON tape all over it and the name of an employee who worked for Sheffield Auctions so the tight arses kept the packaging and basically ripped off their customers!, actual postage was £6.65-packaging free time to pack a minute/franking 2 mins and then putting it all in a bag for Royal Mail to collect-is profiteering x several hundred lots so many 1000 times a year-get some staff for that kind of dough!.
I had another situation with another Auction house a little while ago where they made another high charge and said it was for "specialist packaging" when it fact it was a battered Cadbury's Milk Tray old chocolate box!
At least Dick Turpin wore a mask! |
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Auchinleckian Forum Moderator
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 Posts: 4352
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:43 am
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I don't mind handling charges as long as they're relevant to the transaction that has taken place.
Living in Scotland, and using auction houses on a fairly regular basis, I'm left with no option but to have items sent to me as it's far too expensive to travel down and take part physically.
Take Sportingold or FSA for example. If I buy a number of programmes, I first have to ring up and confirm the purchase, and then pay for them. They then have to be packaged - and I've never had anything unsatisfactory - and posted, either recorded delivery, or very occasionally special delivery. This all takes time, and auction houses have to pay their staff. I don't expect them not to, so there has to be a cost for doing so as their labour doesn't come free.
Conversely, if I register any items with either of said auction houses there's no charge for doing so, which by my reckoning is an excellent facility for sellers. Yes, there are auction houses that abuse postage and packaging charges, but if that's an issue don't use them? |
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goonerboy
Joined: 24 Aug 2009 Posts: 1047
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Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: sheffield auction |
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manchesterunitedman1 wrote: |
I too had a £12.50 or so charge but what peed me off were two things, firstly i was told that i would be informed of the postage costs prior to taking the money which never happened[surprise, surprise] but the other thing is they sent it to me packaged in a piece of cardboard with AMAZON tape all over it and the name of an employee who worked for Sheffield Auctions so the tight arses kept the packaging and basically ripped off their customers!, actual postage was £6.65-packaging free time to pack a minute/franking 2 mins and then putting it all in a bag for Royal Mail to collect-is profiteering x several hundred lots so many 1000 times a year-get some staff for that kind of dough!.I had another situation with another Auction house a little while ago where they made another high charge and said it was for "specialist packaging" when it fact it was a battered Cadbury's Milk Tray old chocolate box! At least Dick Turpin wore a mask! |
Similar happened to me recently. Charged £12.50 for 1 four page programme to be packed and posted. Although postage was special delivery they were still charging £6 for someone to put programme in an envelope and address the envelope. Truly a no more than 2-3 mins job. I complained and to give them their dues they refunded me £5. |
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