Ebay, buy it now.

[Dorking]

In one way it can be handy that things are listed as BINs and stay on for years on end - things like cooker knobs, particular radiator keys and other mundane stuff. You'll never know when you need it, but when you do, it's there for you.

Similarly (maybe less so) with programmes, sometimes I might feel like an impulse purchase and want some random run of the mill old programme (there was an occasion where a bloke at work said he used to be a player and I managed to find a programme with his name on the teamsheet) and it basically works as the quick modern way to find something pretty obscure. I know of someone who fairly cheaply got a friend a programme for their team from the week they were born very easily for example.

[overlap]

Well, having followed this thread, I yesterday listed probably my first item at buy it now, rather than usual auction method, and it has sold this morning.

I am pleased with the price obtained, and hopefully I did not undersell it!
But as I need cash now to(hopefully) try and buy something I want, and the sale price is well above what I paid, then all in all I am pleased with the outcome.

Separately - as others have pointed out, what had previously put me off using BIN was that it seemed to be the repository for chancers to try and shift bog standard items at fantasy island prices.
I wonder if any of those ludicrously over-priced items ever sell? Or are they hoping to lure in some unsuspecting new collector, or non-football buyer, perhaps looking to buy a present for family member/friend?

[daiward]

Quote:

It's great that we now have eBay which broke the dealer monopoly and created the environment where it was easy for anyone to buy and sell, and where bargains could (and still can) be had. It's also reset accepted prices which were artificially high in pre-ebay days, the market decides value based on supply and demand. That can be a good thing and a bad thing depending on your circumstances. Some dealers have adjusted to this and take a pragmatic view to selling, some clearly have not (as can be evidenced by the overpriced BIN's which never sell) and list the same item month after month after month because they have convinced themselves that's what it is worth, despite nobody being interested. More fool them.

You have seriously insulted dealers from the past by the mere fact of comparing them with an organisation that belongs on a field I have many times visited. A boot sale where they should say I am a seller & I have no idea what have or what it is worth but you can have it for...
I have to say your view of eBay breaking the dealer monopoly is a far away from the truth that can be imagined. Watch Sportingold auctions * see proper auction prices. And there are so many more.

[Tynie Topics]

daiward wrote:

You have seriously insulted dealers from the past by the mere fact of comparing them with an organisation that belongs on a field I have many times visited. A boot sale where they should say I am a seller & I have no idea what have or what it is worth but you can have it for... I have to say your view of eBay breaking the dealer monopoly is a far away from the truth that can be imagined. Watch Sportingold auctions * see proper auction prices. And there are so many more.

Behave. You seem to have dealers on some sort of pedestal, sorry, but the world has moved on and thankfully we're no longer reliant on them and their questionable "offers" lists. No insults, just opinion.

A lot of dealers have adapted and paid attention to what's happening on ebay, others have not and still think it's 1984.

I pay attention to auctions, and even there you see many items with silly starting prices/reserves which go unsold. Just look at how many unsold lots there are at the next Sportingold auction.

It doesn't matter if you're a dealer, an auction house, or a private seller. If you take the piss with what you're asking, it wont sell. There is no such thing as a "proper price".
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[Tynie Topics]

pompeypete wrote:

I can only agree Tynie Topic, the same old stuff are posted on e bay month after month. And the same price. But having said that its better than the old dealers "Offers"

You look back now and wonder why on earth you ever got involved in sealed bidding/offers. It made a lot of dealers a lot of money though.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[daiward]

Quote:

Behave. You seem to have dealers on some sort of pedestal, sorry, but the world has moved on and thankfully we're no longer reliant on them and their questionable "offers" lists. No insults, just opinion. A lot of dealers have adapted and paid attention to what's happening on ebay, others have not and still think it's 1984. I pay attention to auctions, and even there you see many items with silly starting prices/reserves which go unsold. Just look at how many unsold lots there are at the next Sportingold auction. It doesn't matter if you're a dealer, an auction house, or a private seller. If you take the piss with what you're asking, it wont sell. There is no such thing as a "proper price". _________________

Have you ever heard of Sports Programmes? The leading dealership from the late 1970's onwards with a trust not just from collectors but other dealers to such an extent that they judged their own price system on Sports who were run by collectors themselves. Roy & bless him the late Tony Stanford were to be trusted at a time when we collectors needed it & still do. Yes it might have been more expensive in the long run but I myself would rather put my money towards an enterprise that has sustained me & countless others throughout those years than an organisation that acts as the 'New Kids on the Block' who have seriously disrupted the market allowing all & sundry in to do such damage.

As for 'behave' I take it that my comments are not well received on this Forum that appears to be the domain of the many posters. If that is so I will gladly retire & you will hear no more from me.

[littlewiggy]

Like PompeyPete, I too agree wholeheartedly with Tynie.

You shouldn't let a simple difference of opinion drive you from the forum though Daiward.

All debate is good.
_________________
NEWPORT COUNTY & GENERAL FOOTY BADGES:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newport-county-badges/albums

[pompeypete]

Dont get me going on dealers in the past.

1 dealer who I think is still going wrote to me because I said "up to £50".

bid not acceptable.

I ignored it & guess what I won with a bid of £50.

My point of course is that the underbid may have been only £5, I never know.
_________________
RESPECT..................

Flickr pages in the process of closing......

Happy to forward any info on Pompey...

[Tynie Topics]

daiward wrote:

Have you ever heard of Sports Programmes? The leading dealership from the late 1970's onwards with a trust not just from collectors but other dealers to such an extent that they judged their own price system on Sports who were run by collectors themselves. Roy & bless him the late Tony Stanford were to be trusted at a time when we collectors needed it & still do. Yes it might have been more expensive in the long run but I myself would rather put my money towards an enterprise that has sustained me & countless others throughout those years than an organisation that acts as the 'New Kids on the Block' who have seriously disrupted the market allowing all & sundry in to do such damage. As for 'behave' I take it that my comments are not well received on this Forum that appears to be the domain of the many posters. If that is so I will gladly retire & you will hear no more from me.

"Seriously disrupted and damaged"? you mean brought the selling and buying of programmes to a worldwide audience, allowing individuals to sell directly to collectors, where all bidding is known and where you get to see what you are buying, with prices more in line with reality?

It's not absolutely perfect, but c'mon, disruption and damage

Sports Programmes were no doubt a prominent dealer and still are, and ran by likeable guys by the sounds of it but let's not beat about the bush, they were a business like any other and probably made a nice living out of it. Nothing wrong with that.

You say other dealers followed their pricing model, isn't that you agreeing that dealers enjoyed a monopoly and in many ways fixed prices, a system that eBay is doing a good job of dismantling?

As for your comments, it's your opinion but I disagree and that's fine, that's what a forum is all about so don't go disappearing because someone disagrees with you.
_________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[Tynie Topics]

pompeypete wrote:

Dont get me going on dealers in the past. 1 dealer who I think is still going wrote to me because I said "up to £50". bid not acceptable. I ignored it & guess what I won with a bid of £50. My point of course is that the underbid may have been only £5, I never know.

The offers system is verging on the corrupt imo.

As you say, you are bidding blind with no way of knowing how much more the under bidder had offered, if there was one.

If a programmes is "offers over £25", and there's a number of bids around the £30-£40 mark, but the winning bid is £150, what is the true value of the programme, £30-£40 or £150?
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[hibernian]

OMG. I'm coming out in a cold sweat thinking about some of the prices I paid back in the day on the offers catalogues.
I see Brentside still utilise this system but I don't know of any other dealers who do.
I think Peter Rundo sells only on eBay and hasn't produced a catalogue for years.

[Posh1959]

hibernian wrote:

OMG. I'm coming out in a cold sweat thinking about some of the prices I paid back in the day on the offers catalogues. I see Brentside still utilise this system but I don't know of any other dealers who do. I think Peter Rundo sells only on eBay and hasn't produced a catalogue for years.

Sports Programmes. John Dee Programme Promotions all have regular offers lists.

[Dorking]

I remember using the old offers lists in the days before ebay. I only used them if there was a programme I REALLY wanted, and shudder when I think of how many times I miraculously won the item but with my maximum bid.

[daiward]

OK thanks for the advice of staying on here but I think I would rather go back into the crowd and be a spectator again. I have had too many years of being in amongst controversy. The ageing process has caught up with me and caused a downturn in my militancy. (I will still wear a red flag until my end!)
Some issues I will leave you with though. When saying eBay had seriously disrupted and damaged our hobby I was expressing my own feelings having been for many years in an environment I could trust and feel safe within. Sports Programmes, John Dee, David Allen and the late John Smith to name just a few reliable dealers who were as honest as the day is long. And yes I know there were other dealers who appeared less than trustworthy so you steered clear. So do I feel that same safe experience on eBay? No the complete opposite. They do not give a jot about any of us in all honesty. They are there to make money as a business full stop. But where that differs from yesteryear is that I could always rely on any problems being ironed out by contacting the business in question. What do eBay do in that respect? Simply tell me I have to sort it out with my ’trading partner’ as they cannot get involved. So they cannot offer assistance. Why? Is it not their business we work within? So instead we have to deal with people we have only met because they are on eBay. Do I feel a degree of not being properly looked after or entirely safe? You bet I do especially if a negative is left for no reason and the best eBay can come up with is that it is a matter of opinion between ‘trading partners’.
I hope I Have I at least managed to offer some kind of reasonable evidence to suggest that disruption & damage if only affecting old farts like me. I could go on but see no point as there will undoubtedly be someone who wants the last word. C’est la vie!

[littlewiggy]

We all disagree from time to time on here Daiward, doesn't mean your opinions aren't equally as valid though mate.

It would be a boring forum without a bit of healthy debate, so don't ever let it refrain you from posting.
I can vehemently disagree with somebody one day, and completely agree with the same poster on a different topic the next.

It's never personal and while I agreed with Tynie, I found your side of the debate very interesting nonetheless mate.
I enjoyed reading it.
_________________
NEWPORT COUNTY & GENERAL FOOTY BADGES:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newport-county-badges/albums

[manchesterunitedman1]

daiward wrote:

OK thanks for the advice of staying on here but I think I would rather go back into the crowd and be a spectator again. I have had too many years of being in amongst controversy. The ageing process has caught up with me and caused a downturn in my militancy. (I will still wear a red flag until my end!) Some issues I will leave you with though. When saying eBay had seriously disrupted and damaged our hobby I was expressing my own feelings having been for many years in an environment I could trust and feel safe within. Sports Programmes, John Dee, David Allen and the late John Smith to name just a few reliable dealers who were as honest as the day is long. And yes I know there were other dealers who appeared less than trustworthy so you steered clear. So do I feel that same safe experience on eBay? No the complete opposite. They do not give a jot about any of us in all honesty. They are there to make money as a business full stop. But where that differs from yesteryear is that I could always rely on any problems being ironed out by contacting the business in question. What do eBay do in that respect? Simply tell me I have to sort it out with my ’trading partner’ as they cannot get involved. So they cannot offer assistance. Why? Is it not their business we work within? So instead we have to deal with people we have only met because they are on eBay. Do I feel a degree of not being properly looked after or entirely safe? You bet I do especially if a negative is left for no reason and the best eBay can come up with is that it is a matter of opinion between ‘trading partners’. I hope I Have I at least managed to offer some kind of reasonable evidence to suggest that disruption & damage if only affecting old farts like me. I could go on but see no point as there will undoubtedly be someone who wants the last word. C’est la vie!

i have watched and listened to what you have said about this matter and i have to say that i cannot agree with you entirely.
Yes there were and still are some very scrupulous dealers-honest as the day is long & there are others like Dorian Taylor whose lists are immense and he is extremely easy to chat with and despite this i have never spent a penny with him over the years, Keith Ennion in Altrincham a United specialist also has plenty to offer with discounts too and i guess there will be many others but the conventional way the hobby was operating 20 years ago is now completely different and i personally prefer it as it is now despite the issues that can be associated with it all.

However, for every good apple there will always be some rotten ones-some have frequented this forum as we all know.

So that is all i have to say about the dealers-now as far as ebay is concerned-despite the strokes, despite the poor communication-despite their rip off fees, despite EVERYTHING and ANYTHING else everyone has something to complain about they were like a breath of fresh air when they entered the arena all those years ago and if it was not for them then or now my collection would not have grown as it has and some of the stuff i have managed to win has been outstanding!as they have brought out of cupboards and lofts and attics some incredible items over the years by private individuals that may have just lain there and never been discovered.

Yes they are imperfect[like everything else] everyone bitches about Sky/BT/Virgin fees but most of us have a dish and pay!

The alternative nowadays to ebay is 20 odd percent fees at auctions and the control is no longer in your hands, with ebay you are totally in control of the purchasing as you can wait till the death and hang around or use a snipe tool or go early and show your hand as it takes all sorts for sure or sit their sweating your nackers off hoping no one is going to come and snipe u at the death!

There are some very good auction houses and we all know who the main ones are, but you are not in control like you are with ebay-no one is asking you-"one more bid" then "one more bid" then "are u going to lose it for one more bid then?". I am not saying do not use an auction house, do not take a phone line, do not go on the saleroom if you want anonymity and no one to know who is bidding[but they do because you have registered and a smart auctioneer will know the prominent and up and coming collectors and do his best to extract the max] well no issues there it is his job as he is not working for you to obtain your goal!. I note as will you all that now every one and his dog auction house is now desperate to look for football stuff and nothing is now a secret due to the saleroom, but 10 years ago a provincial auction house in Cornwall would not be able to sell Steve Bloomers collection for £500k++ it would have off to Sotheby's or Bonhams or Phillips or any of the other "snotty" outfits from years ago but the saleroom now promoting everyone of their clients is doing a great job for them all in getting them maximum exposure and there are very few bargains around unless some collectors still continue to slip some stuff inside others! haha-i have seen it done by some of the "most respected collectors" but i have to say they were not United collectors well not on that day for sure!.

The old days of accepting someone else's condition reports and then getting a paddy on when that is not "slightly creased" but someone has done a limbo on the bloody thing! will not happen today on ebay.

I felt that i have to say something but i still bid at auctions-i still use ebay-i still get some dealers lists but unless i am completely surprised there is usually nowt there for me and if there is i need a scan and a condition report and then if ok will make a bid and if i get it then fine and if i do not-next, because it was never meant to be no sleep lost. Maybe as u get a bit older "you can take it or leave it"? but i will not simply pay OTT just to stick it in a binder and forget about it. Maybe because i am so diverse that there is always something turning up out of the blue not just one sector like just programmes so i can be a bit more laid back about it perhaps?-who knows.


I dealt with Sports Tony Stanford and Roy Calmels since the 1970's and i would go into their place in Digbeth in Birmingham and marvel at what they had but Tony who would never crack his face unless you were spending anything over a twenty quid but they had a great business forming then, but even when they moved to Coventry i always wanted to see it for myself, Roy was a gent and still is but i have not had the patience for the last 16 years to go through their lists like the old days as then i and we all had no alternatives-the excitement of the sports catalogue arriving and he cleverly put your club in no order so they could appear a number of times-those were exciting and happy days but that was 20 years ago and the future of the hobby is as you see it now, if i have missed out well ce la vie-i bet i won more battles than i ever lost.

Yes there are millions of tons of crap on ebay-yes there is a pile of stuff going around on a merry go round, yes there are shill bidders and private auctions yes there are more Bastards out there trying to stiff u daily-i get all of that but i will come back to my original point-I AM IN CONTROL i buy what suits me and ebay has brought out so much stuff and will continue too-there are millions of honest people buying and selling and i for one am as comfortable now as i was when they started-at least if i think an item is a bit dodgy i can contact the seller directly and if i do not get a satisfactory answer i walk away.
I have maybe done a few 1000 ebay deals and never had a bad un, yes a few near scrapes with receiving an item that was not the same one in the photo but nothing serious. But i do recognise the points made by DAIWARD that some dealings can go badly wrong and leave a bad taste but that is life and Sxxt happens so we have to get up and get on i suppose. Also i am 99% a buyer and hardly a seller but when i have sold bits n pieces-never had issues thank goodness.

My own view on using the sniper is that this is what i do-i used to have to hang around to sit and wait till the last 10 seconds for 10 or 20 or more auctions all finishing around the same time as this is what i used to do and was getting beaten every time so it was a case of if you cannot beat em then...... I have also had from time to time the sniper not placing my bids and i lost out as the stuff went cheaper-glitches on the system and all of that we all have had and u calm down in a day or so but give me ebay with every known issue over the conventional lists everytime-perhaps of course if i was still looking for quite a lot of the day to day league and cup programmes then maybe i would give it more time to spend but ebay at a glance can save me so much time and effort.

As for the much maligned Elvis and his 2 mates i have had one or two interesting buys for sure from them over the years too.

Lastly, if i bid and win and get something different than the advertised item i can fall back on PapyPpal to cover my rear end.

I am speaking in the main from how it has affected me over the years and i will say when i have made bids "up too" and won the item i always wondered what was the under bidder! 20 quid or 200 below-i will never know! certainly no transparency in doing it that way and when i have made a few odd bids recently i still never managed to win anything, so i think i will stick to what i am comfortable with

Finally, these are my thoughts Mr Daiward-you are a mature collector-why walk away from a forum because one or two also very knowledgeable members have answered you with their point of view that does not match your own-you have only been active a short while and this forum needs mature collectors to give and show what they have and impart their vast experiences/knowledge to the rest of us as the old adage is true together we are United[haha] but divided we fall.

Keep popping in and out and let's see and hear a bit more of what you have been doing all these years....also how you buy is down to you and if as you have already said what makes you comfortable and safe-well fine but live and let live eh, as we are all different in our habits and it has nothing to do with having the last word still if that is how you feel then, it's au revoir.

Anyway i have just uploaded a few more odds and ends-quite diverse so if anyone want to see some unusual "cottage industry" items produced for the 1948 Cup Final to some scarce tickets and programmes or press photos then please follow the links below.


_________________
Leslie Millman
Twitter: @manyuman1

To see 19,900++ original items relating to Newton Heath & Manchester Utd 1878-2023 then visit www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/sets to see entire uploads.

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Click any images 21 MILLION views to date to the Flickr site since 2007 growing every day. New Uploads weekly. Thank You to one & all for visiting!

[Dorking]

Outstanding post Leslie. Differences of opinion are what makes a forum great, really don't want to see anyone flounce who has so much to share.

[Tynie Topics]

Well said Leslie and like yourself, if it wasn’t for eBay there any many great items in my collection that would never have seen the light of day and likely have ended up in a skip.

For all its faults, it has brought football memorabilia collecting to a worldwide audience and as such, people who don’t have a clue generally list their “junk” on eBay and sometimes get a big surprise. Pre- 2000 there is a high probability that their junk would have gone in the aforementioned skip, or at best a car boot sale. Everything has a value now. Also the European market is a lot more accessible and as long as you’re careful you can pick up some great items that would never have surfaced pre-eBay.

You’ve seen my comments on offers lists. I have dabbled in the past with these with some success, but I quickly realised that this was effectively a con and I’ve not seriously looked at an offers list for well over 15 years. I recall plenty of debate in the pages of Programme Monthly in the old days with people complaining bitterly about the offers system and offering alternatives, and to be honest I’m surprised they still exist and people still indulge. Each to their own I suppose.

You make great points about control and transparency. You control what’s happening with eBay, and you can see exactly what it is you’re bidding on and can ask questions. Not happy? walk away. In many ways, eBay has strengthened the hobby by making it much more accessible.

Finally I love a bit of (sensible) debate as you may have guessed, and I certainly don’t discourage opinions which differ from mine. I would be a boring world if we all thought the same.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums

[sharrowblade]

I think a lot of you have some valid points, but with regards to sporting memorabilia, ebay is no longer an auction site. The 'BIN' market has all but killed my interest in programme collecting.

Its so tedious.

I haven't been on it for 3 months
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/sharrowblade/sets
A Sheffield United Programme guide

[Tynie Topics]

sharrowblade wrote:

I think a lot of you have some valid points, but with regards to sporting memorabilia, ebay is no longer an auction site. The 'BIN' market has all but killed my interest in programme collecting. Its so tedious. I haven't been on it for 3 months

At any given time, my watch list consists of maybe 20-30% BIN items, some of which also have best offer option.

The rest are straight auction, and that's where most of my purchases occur.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/footballprogrammes/albums