British clubs in europe

[Stew1881]

Morning all

Came across this list of tours on the continent whilst searching for info on early Clapton Orient tours.

Hope it's of some interest and use to some of you

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesb/brit-ier-tours-prewwii.html

Cheers Stew

[pnefan]

Interesting

PNE Cup winners in April 1938

22-5-1938 Praha SK Slavia Praha-Preston North End 6-1 L

Wonder what the line up was .
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[martino]

Stew1881 wrote:

Morning all Came across this list of tours on the continent whilst searching for info on early Clapton Orient tours. Hope it's of some interest and use to some of you http://www.rsssf.com/tablesb/brit-ier-tours-prewwii.html Cheers Stew

An excellent find. Thanks for posting.

Does any member know of a similar source for post WW2 overseas tours?

[Stew1881]

There is some cracking fixtures there . Bristol rovers v AC Milan , PSV v Bromley and looks like Barcelona and Crook town were well acquainted !


And the civil service liked a jolly up in Prague no change there then 😂

[garyspain]

Great fnd although Sir Moses Hill may have an issue with Glentoran FC Dublin.

[bisphamseasider]

The rsssf site is a fantastic source of information even if the style and layout is a bit antiquated.

I have used this for years and it never ceases to throw up stats not available elsewhere.

[wandererpaul]

I've used that website before. A great piece of work. I don't believe there's anything similar for those Club Tours post 1946.

A number of those tour games versus Barcelona, and other Spanish clubs, in the 1920's are depicted on Spanish trade cards.




_________________
Not Forgotten; Allwright, Greechan, Hagan, Kennedy, Littler, Purver, Robotham, Saunders, Shields

[Stew1881]

Amazing to think that some amateur sides have probably played Barcelona more than some of big guns

[pnefan]

Alcantara was the 'Messi ' of that era - a prolific goal scorer .
_________________
http://www.sportsattax.net/ Paypal accepted No Pies - Ticket stubs added daily

[wandererpaul]

Brentford FC were the first 'professional' football club to tour Portugal in May 1936.

The info shown on the website misses out two other matches that were played in May 1936.

I have a Portuguese Magazine from the period about the tour, but never seen anything else bar a few press pictures - some I missed at an auction a few years ago.





Again, the same with the German Tour in May 1937, just seen pictures and nothing else. The Brentford side were forced to make the Nazi salute which wasnt well received back home. The manager at the time, Harry Curtis, wasn't happy either and in his writings a few years later, told the players not to make the Nazi salute again.


_________________
Not Forgotten; Allwright, Greechan, Hagan, Kennedy, Littler, Purver, Robotham, Saunders, Shields

[manchesterunitedman1]

wandererpaul wrote:

Brentford FC were the first 'professional' football club to tour Portugal in May 1936. The info shown on the website misses out two other matches that were played in May 1936. I have a Portuguese Magazine from the period about the tour, but never seen anything else bar a few press pictures - some I missed at an auction a few years ago. Again, the same with the German Tour in May 1937, just seen pictures and nothing else. The Brentford side were forced to make the Nazi salute which wasnt well received back home. The manager at the time, Harry Curtis, wasn't happy either and in his writings a few years later, told the players not to make the Nazi salute again.

Why go to a place like Germany in the first place knowing of the civil unrest and the persecutions those Bastards were enforcing!.
How many other European countries could you have travelled too in 1937-answer any of them!.
As for the Nazi salute-so what would happen if they didn't do it?-get arrested? if you are forced to have to do such a thing as this to show respect to a tyrant then what the bloody hell are you going there for in the first place!.

Manchester City went to Germany/Austria in 1935-1937, has anyone seen photos of them being forced to salute Hitler, I think the Villa side in 1939 had too as well.



The manager said do not do it again to the players, maybe he should have had the balls to tell them that when they were there not when they came back.

Nazi Bastards-and there are still plenty of them out there as well now.

[wandererpaul]

Leslie,

It was 78 years ago! Time is a healer.

As most people back then didn't know what was just a couple of years away, I wouldn't have a clue as to why Germany was chosen as a place to make an end of season Club Tour. Although it was known for good football and good hospitality!

As for the salute, it was to do with showing respect to the ruling party, but the German side continued to give the Nazi salute even when the British National Anthem was played. So Harry Curtis told the players that in the following matches, the players would not be saluting the German's when their National Anthem was to be played.

No money could be taken out of Germny at that time either, so the Football Club had to spend every penny they recieved from the gate monies in Germany and on the players.

I just wished there was more memorabilia about than a few press pictures and newspaper reports of our tours abroad before the War.
_________________
Not Forgotten; Allwright, Greechan, Hagan, Kennedy, Littler, Purver, Robotham, Saunders, Shields

[manchesterunitedman1]

wandererpaul wrote:

Leslie, It was 78 years ago! Time is a healer. As most people back then didn't know what was just a couple of years away, I wouldn't have a clue as to why Germany was chosen as a place to make an end of season Club Tour. Although it was known for good football and good hospitality! As for the salute, it was to do with showing respect to the ruling party, but the German side continued to give the Nazi salute even when the British National Anthem was played. So Harry Curtis told the players that in the following matches, the players would not be saluting the German's when their National Anthem was to be played. No money could be taken out of Germny at that time either, so the Football Club had to spend every penny they recieved from the gate monies in Germany and on the players. I just wished there was more memorabilia about than a few press pictures and newspaper reports of our tours abroad before the War.

Speechless!-tell that to the millions of people that the Nazis Murdered, there relatives would not share that view.
Anyway, this is not a forum for political debate because it will only disintegrate into an area no one wishes to go too. I have said what I think and I will not participate into anymore conversations about it.
Back to the memorabilia for me.

[wandererpaul]

A number of clubs toured Germany in the late 1930's, including Aston Villa, Derby, Everton, Man City, Glasgow Rangers and Middx Wanderers.

I think I read, some where, that another club made the Nazi salute at the time. Were they just naive? Did the clubs back then know what was happening inside Germany? If they did, why didn't the authorities back then stop these tours?

Here's a quote from Harry's memoirs which does seem to show that people knew what was just around the corner.

""Looking back, I must say that the Germans stressed it on us that they did not want War with England. Yet it was all deceit, for they must have realised that they were preparing once again to set Europe alight""

Sorry if my post above has upset you.
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Not Forgotten; Allwright, Greechan, Hagan, Kennedy, Littler, Purver, Robotham, Saunders, Shields

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

Yes, Paul, 78 years ago and not even Leslie can remember those days. Hindsight is a marvellous thing.

Ignorance about Nazi atrocities was rife. The Tory press were largely sympathetic to Hitler and so the ghetto-isation of Warsaw and the like was generally unreported or relegated to a column inside somewhere.

Our government of the day were appeasers and Churchill was dong his best to make them see sense.

The people had no access to the internet or even television back then, apart from the well-heeled who had one channel, the BBC, who again, were largely sympathetic to Hitler or at best, retained a neutral stance. There was the Radio and there were broadcasts about it but as now, did people listen or were they too busy trying to earn a crust?

So a humble football club and its players wouldn't have known half of what was going on. It looks shocking now and it looked shocking even in 1939 but in 1937 it probably seemed like a fad.

There was a good film out a few years back - The Glorious 39 - about how we sleep-walked into war. Catch it if you can.

[mcfc56]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

Why go to a place like Germany in the first place knowing of the civil unrest and the persecutions those Bastards were enforcing!. How many other European countries could you have travelled too in 1937-answer any of them!. As for the Nazi salute-so what would happen if they didn't do it?-get arrested? if you are forced to have to do such a thing as this to show respect to a tyrant then what the bloody hell are you going there for in the first place!. Manchester City went to Germany/Austria in 1935-1937, has anyone seen photos of them being forced to salute Hitler, I think the Villa side in 1939 had too as well. The manager said do not do it again to the players, maybe he should have had the balls to tell them that when they were there not when they came back. Nazi Bastards-and there are still plenty of them out there as well now.

The one game where the City players were expected to give the Nazi salute was when they were the first English club to play in the Olympic Stadium Berlin in 1937 against what was effectively the German national team. Here's a quote from Peter Doherty taken from one of Gary James's excellent books on City's history.

"We were expected to give the Nazi salute at the line-up before the match started, but we decided merely to stand to attention. When the German national anthem was played only 11 arms went up instead of 22".

[wandererpaul]

Derby Co. gave the salute in 1934 - here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-20638527 - and England gave the salute in 1938 - here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm - It's all on google.

Aston Villa refused - info here http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2992913,00.html - as did Manchester City - info here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S2rGCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=manchester+city+nazi+salute&source=bl&ots=Ggz2zC-mUK&sig=FoPYZiY0ZXV5okZcwvUBWMJh71Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZXCFVdDpKKKs7Aah8qSYBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=manchester%20city%20nazi%20salute&f=false - at the time.

It's all off topic and all too political.

But you cannot just sweep it under the carpet. What happened, happened, and it's about learning from it and to educate the next generations. Even if it's through football pictures.
_________________
Not Forgotten; Allwright, Greechan, Hagan, Kennedy, Littler, Purver, Robotham, Saunders, Shields

[hydemaine]

wandererpaul wrote:

Derby Co. gave the salute in 1934 - here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-20638527 - and England gave the salute in 1938 - here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm - It's all on google. Aston Villa refused - info here http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2992913,00.html- [b]as did Manchester City - info here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S2rGCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=manchester+city+nazi+salute&source=bl&ots=Ggz2zC-mUK&sig=FoPYZiY0ZXV5okZcwvUBWMJh71Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZXCFVdDpKKKs7Aah8qSYBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=manchester%20city%20nazi%20salute&f=false - at the time.[ It's all off topic and all too political. But you cannot just sweep it under the carpet. What happened, happened, and it's about learning from it and to educate the next generations. Even if it's through football pictures.

The City book is a good read....made me laugh that Frank Swift took the piss out of the nazi salute and would go around saluting everyone and everything to get a reaction.

[Pete’s Picture Palace]

wandererpaul wrote:

Derby Co. gave the salute in 1934 - here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-20638527 - and England gave the salute in 1938 - here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm - It's all on google. Aston Villa refused - info here http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2992913,00.html - as did Manchester City - info here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S2rGCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT33&lpg=PT33&dq=manchester+city+nazi+salute&source=bl&ots=Ggz2zC-mUK&sig=FoPYZiY0ZXV5okZcwvUBWMJh71Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZXCFVdDpKKKs7Aah8qSYBQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=manchester%20city%20nazi%20salute&f=false - at the time. It's all off topic and all too political. But you cannot just sweep it under the carpet. What happened, happened, and it's about learning from it and to educate the next generations. Even if it's through football pictures.

I agree 100% Paul.

And as for learning through football pictures, make that 110% !

[Dorking]

Pete - I have a couple of postcard sized photos of Palace's first tour to Prague.

They were from the hoard of stuff that belonged to goalkeeper of the time Joshua Johnson, which all got snapped up by Ron D.

He resold most of the collection about 3 years ago, and I got a lot of the Palace stuff, including two photos as I mention above. I will try and get an image across to this thread in due course