What has happened to the value of programmes?

[Ronsaunders]

I see a few reasons for the decline in prices. Firstly "rare" programmes that dealers used to tout as such, turn up, at least infrequently. Wimbledon v Villa in 1973 used to be difficult but now not so. In economic theory terminology, eBay has created a situation of (near) Perfect Competition. Secondly, I do not see clubs doing much to encourage the next generation. As I grew up, upon going on the Witton End, there was a programme stall selling a varied selection of programmes and back issues. Not very prevalent now. Then it's the cost. £6 for an England home is outrageous when there's actually very little content - very much style over substance. £3 or £4 for a club issue that again is style over substance and takes up a huge amount of room to store. Not conducive to invigorating a new collector.
I've seen this "tax" thing brought up a couple of times. Well, in my case and I guess quite a number of others, we've collected (hoarded) stuff for years and I use Ebay to try and dispose of some of them. They were not acquired with the intention to profit from them and a business is not being run. They, therefore, fall under the chattels exemption which allows you to sell over £7k of small value assets in a year without being subject to income taxes. Naturally, if you'd purchased them with an intention to profit from them, then tax would be payable. Or you could just sell them lock, stock and barrel to a dealer who'd probably pay you 1% of the actual worth of them.

[BAZZABAGGIES]

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[goonerboy]

I suspect that the internet/computers in general has reduced enthusiasm and the need for collecting.

Some have commented about the relative lack of content of programmes but that was always the case. When I look back through some 60s or 70s programmes then there were a few match reports, some editorial comments, maybe pictures/article about what a player does in his spare time and general admin stuff eg travel club details, ticket sale dates. But because there was no internet we didn't see that stuff at the push of a button. These days if I cared I could probably find out not only what my favourite player ate for breakfast on friday but also what is mother ate etc. So really there is nothing in a programme that any average kid can't/hasn't already seen on the internet.

Also collecting/hoarding is a basal male instinct. However with the various computer games the hunter/gatherer instinct in kids is probably already satiated with COD or Zombie Fest 10 or whatever.

I suspect that new collectors will be "middle-aged" guys who have some disposable income and for whom nostalgia starts to kick in. The days of kids collecting are largely gone.

On the issue of prices. It is truly a supply and demand issue and eBay has blown the equation apart in favour of the collector. Now everybody can sell a collection or odd items whereas before the only avenue was a dealer. Also I suspect previously the dealers stretched the definition of rare. A good example for Arsenal are the 2 league ties vs Gillingham in 66/67. An Arsenal dealer sells them for £20-£25. That would suggest an element of rarity as other home progs from that season he prices at £2. Today on ebay you probably only need to wait 2-3 weeks maximum to get those gillingham progs for no more than £5 and often less. That doesn't mean the winning bidders wouldn't pay £20 but simply that they don't need to pay £20. However it also shows that even rare programmes are often quite readily available compared to the number of collectors who need/want them.

[pompeypete]

And of course in the 'old' days if you offered £20 for a programme & won the auction..............

You paid £20...........even if the next highest bid was 50p

Thats why E bay has taken off, a little bit more transparent

But not perfect by a long way........Its the..

private listing - bidders' identities protected, that wind me up.....

pete
_________________
RESPECT..................

Flickr pages in the process of closing......

Happy to forward any info on Pompey...

[Eck]

pompeypete wrote:

And of course in the 'old' days if you offered £20 for a programme & won the auction.............. You paid £20...........even if the next highest bid was 50p Thats why E bay has taken off, a little bit more transparent But not perfect by a long way........Its the.. private listing - bidders' identities protected, that wind me up..... pete

That is the sellers option, I don't like that either.I like to know how many bidders i'm up against, I also like to know if there are two numpties going at it hammer & tongs with multiple bids. Bidders have no protection whatsoever, the opposite is true.

[bisphamseasider]

pompeypete wrote:

And of course in the 'old' days if you offered £20 for a programme & won the auction.............. You paid £20...........even if the next highest bid was 50p Thats why E bay has taken off, a little bit more transparent

Yes, I have just won an item from Sports Programmes by bidding a little higher than I probably needed.

I'll never know though so perhaps it's best not to think about it.

[PompeyPhil]

What put me off with some dealers was accepting the "bid up to" amount......lost quite a few by that method which I felt was unfair as it seemed to be kept quiet by some........

[Red C]

Just read through this thread, and I agree that eBay is one of the main causes. But, as others have said, it has just rebalanced the prices to reflect genuine scarcity, not just scarcity as dictated by dealers.

Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the 1996 FA Cup Final programme, United v Liverpool This is often at £100 on dealer websites, citing its rarity. This programme is for sale on ebay all the time. Some people are still dreaming of a £100 sale, and others are more realistic. I sold two recently, and both fetched £20 which is probably about right.

I also sold a 1972 European Cup final programme recently. This can be on dealer sites for up to £500, yet it achieved £100 on ebay and I was happy with that. £100 is the going rate and dealers are fooling themselves if they think it's "worth" £500.

I think ebay has highlighted the difference between dealer-designated "rare" and genuine rare items which are still attracting decent prices.

[treble99]

a couple of points to pick up on here

Sometimes dealers asking prices amaze me.
That said dealers are professional sellers and must surely be expected to have a finger on the pulse of prices especially when what they are offering is not rare on the sense of not many exist and you never see it as opposed to something like a cup final just after the war
As an example i note the 1948 between Manchester United v Blackpool being offered at around £200/250
This was at best £150 before the crash
Now struggles mostly to get £100
There are hundreds of them permanently on sale so what are the dealers that offer them at that price hoping to achieve
They either don't want to or expect to sell them or alternatively they are looking for mugs.
There is no nice way to say that.
If they find a mug then that mug will find out that he has had his arse slapped and may well fall out of love with the hobby at worst
There will be no repeat business at best

That leads me on to the myth about the rarity of the 1996 FA Cup final programme
It was never a rare programme
All bullshit put out to increase income
Think about it
Why would it be rare
When they decide on the numbers of a programme to be printed they take into account the number of the expected crowd together with a well proven calculation of what percentage buy programmes and with the knowledge that a certain percentage buy more
Add on to that pre orders that are known and you get a print run.
It was a cup final with a guaranteed sell out
It didn't piss down all day and ruin the programmes
So why would there be a shortage?
Answer was that there wasn't so why should there be a premium?

[Red C]

It simply isn't rare, and as you say, there is no reason for it to be. I don't know when it became "rare" (i.e. dealers charging £100 for it). It's as if they all got together and said, "let's all pretend this one is really scarce".

It does fetch £20 now but that is a residue of the myth that it is rare. Other recent cup finals are difficult to shift at £1 in pristine condition.

As for the other programmes, I think that dealers probably know that the prices have come down, but are holding out for someone paying their premium. As you say, effectively this is looking for a mug and doesn't make much business sense. 48 cup final is a good example. No way this will fetch £250 now.

I find it frustrating as there are lots for sale on ebay that I would buy for the right price, but they are there month in month out at silly prices. £50 for ones that sell for £15 to £20 when they're auctioned.

[PompeyPhil]

Funnily enough i was checking a well known Programme site last night and found myself smiling at the "inflated" prices of FA Cup Final Programmes......take the 1939 FA Cup Final programme......it went through a period of reaching a total of £300-350 but has now dropped to somewhere between £150-250 for an immaculate condition programme. (Check the Bids online Auction Site Current Estimate £120-160 Ebay sold versions between £150-250). Yet on this dealer site, it was up for £500!! How can that be justified? Surely even taking into consideration the time and effort the dealer has taken into obtaining and advertising the programme its still well over priced isn't it? Perhaps they have paid too much for it in the first place or as stated they are just waiting for a mug to come along? It would be interesting to see what the dealers have to say about this issue?

[Eck]

Treble wrote:

That leads me on to the myth about the rarity of the 1996 FA Cup final programme It was never a rare programme All bullshit put out to increase income Think about it Why would it be rare

Same with the 96 SCF two years ago dealers were trying to punt it as a rare programme at £30 and new collectors were diving on in when it appeared at a tenner, sometimes some dealers got it mixed up wit the 98 SCF, now you can get them easily for a fiver or under.

[Karb]

Currently on ebay, the programme from the postponed Sunderland v Everton game in 1970 is being described as mega rare.

I have two copies, and don't think I paid more than £1 for either.

[Ronsaunders]

Again, there is one dealer on eBay (I won't mention names, but there's certainly a Las Vegas theme) who charge ridiculous amounts. £2.99 for mid 70's Villa with token removed, creased, folded etc etc. No wonder the hobby is almost on its' arse.

[manchesterunitedman1]

treble99 wrote:

a couple of points to pick up on here Sometimes dealers asking prices amaze me. That said dealers are professional sellers and must surely be expected to have a finger on the pulse of prices especially when what they are offering is not rare on the sense of not many exist and you never see it as opposed to something like a cup final just after the war As an example i note the 1948 between Manchester United v Blackpool being offered at around £200/250 This was at best £150 before the crash Now struggles mostly to get £100 There are hundreds of them permanently on sale so what are the dealers that offer them at that price hoping to achieve They either don't want to or expect to sell them or alternatively they are looking for mugs. There is no nice way to say that. If they find a mug then that mug will find out that he has had his arse slapped and may well fall out of love with the hobby at worst There will be no repeat business at best That leads me on to the myth about the rarity of the 1996 FA Cup final programme It was never a rare programme All bullshit put out to increase income Think about it Why would it be rare When they decide on the numbers of a programme to be printed they take into account the number of the expected crowd together with a well proven calculation of what percentage buy programmes and with the knowledge that a certain percentage buy more Add on to that pre orders that are known and you get a print run. It was a cup final with a guaranteed sell out It didn't piss down all day and ruin the programmes So why would there be a shortage? Answer was that there wasn't so why should there be a premium?

Just a few extra words on the 1948 FA Cup Final.
Ray is spot on about the pricing and i agree there can be no good reason why some dealers consistently have this around £249 BIN or even a tad less as it is clearly the most popular and available Cup Final out of all the ones played in the 1940's at Wembley.

BUT there is another version which is the copy that was presented to the guests in the Royal Box area and although there are just an odd difference in the content the actual quality of the paper is such that the staples NEVER RUST through because the paper was a heavy "linen/weave" type that was not the cheap quality that the other 100,000 fans were offered.
Furthermore, inside the RBox copy there was a slip of paper given to advise the dignatories that changes to theoriginal printed team line up's and let us face it who would be carrying a pen as it would take most of them two hands not to spill the fee bevvy/champers all over themselves and the deck as it was!

Now i do have one or two of these "special editions" one of which was the Refs own copy I have had for 30years.

As regards the pricing the Royal Box area had around 335 seats and i [including the Royalty] plus the programmes were simply not left on the seats they were given out by being placed in a hard backed folder with the Monarch's logo/emblem embossed on the cover.

To locate such a special edition programme, team changes slip of paper, hard backed folder and not to forget the Luncheon Menu and Seating plan hosted by Wembley's MD Sir Arthur Elvin at lunch time knees up.

So, 100,000 punters, say 60% buy a programme?? thats 60,000 in circulation and say 67 years later 50% are lost, thrown away, fall to bits that leaves 30,000 and lets just say my calculations are all inaccurate and only 10,000 copies are still lying around in various states of rusting and rotting away including those in collections-yet 335 of the special ones were issued and maybe there are 120 let in the same way, hidden and some in collections and MOST collectors may not even BE AWARE of the significance that they possess?, so with all this new found knowledge it is now going to come to pass that some RBox copies may well appear on ebay with all the big build up and all that jazz becasue to me the daft prices of the current crop of low quality editions are far too expensive but to find a Royal Box copy has to be something special and knowing that one of those 335 persons used to own it-may even have been the Kings!
Well one such ebay seller recently who is no mug offered it on ebay for 250[not knowing anything about it other than it is in a near mint condition, then it never sold, so it went to 235 no sale then 225 no sale i asked after it failed to sell for the 3rd time-yes i will sell for 210 no lower-so i said no ta, back on ebay 210 never sold, 190 another week-never sold 185 never sold then i made my once and for all final offer and finally it was sold.

As i do not collect any other club's programmes i cannot say i have seen a Royal Box copy for 1946-7-9 or any other year except for 1963 where i have a slightly different version so i suspect there was one produced for every final over the years since 1923 at Wembley at least.

I now hope this inspires everyone to go and root out what they have and it would be more than interesting to learn if anyone has found a Royal Box version they never realised they actually had!


i AM NOT GOING BE PREDICTABLE AND SHOW YOU THE PROGRAMME OR THE LUNCH MENU OR THE SLIP OF PAPER OR EVEN THE EMBOSSED HARD BACK COVER SO IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM THEN VISIT ME AT WWW.FLICKR.COM/PHOTOS/MANCHESTERUNITEDMAN1/SETS AND GO AND ROOT IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!

[BAZZABAGGIES]

Ronsaunders wrote:

Again, there is one dealer on eBay (I won't mention names, but there's certainly a Las Vegas theme) who charge ridiculous amounts. £2.99 for mid 70's Villa with token removed, creased, folded etc etc. No wonder the hobby is almost on its' arse.

Ron Saunders you sold Steve Bull from the Baggies to the Dingles what do you know. ?

Anyone selling a programme for £2.99 POST FREE is okay by me.

I just posted a modern programme because im a sensitve soul for £1.99 POST FREE.. It cost me £1.17 to post and take all the other costs off and i ended up with 26p profit...

So stop moaning the days of bargain programmes are over this is 2015
thanks to The Royal Mail, Paypal, Ebay, ripping off us TAX PAYING DEALERS
Ive just paid £3 for a fecking ROSE.

[derby1884]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

As i do not collect any other club's programmes i cannot say i have seen a Royal Box copy for 1946-7-9 or any other year except for 1963 where i have a slightly different version so i suspect there was one produced for every final over the years since 1923 at Wembley at least.

I have a Royal Box copy of the 1950 Amateur Cup Final programme - the paper certainly is of a higher quality!

I must check to see if it includes the insert you mention.
_________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derby1884/sets/

[manchesterunitedman1]

BAZZABAGGIES wrote:

Ronsaunders wrote: Again, there is one dealer on eBay (I won't mention names, but there's certainly a Las Vegas theme) who charge ridiculous amounts. £2.99 for mid 70's Villa with token removed, creased, folded etc etc. No wonder the hobby is almost on its' arse. Ron Saunders you sold Steve Bull from the Baggies to the Dingles what do you know. ? Anyone selling a programme for £2.99 POST FREE is okay by me. I just posted a modern programme because im a sensitve soul for £1.99 POST FREE.. It cost me £1.17 to post and take all the other costs off and i ended up with 26p profit... So stop moaning the days of bargain programmes are over this is 2015 thanks to The Royal Mail, Paypal, Ebay, ripping off us TAX PAYING DEALERS Ive just paid £3 for a fecking ROSE.

what a mug 6 for 7.50 or 12 for 15 nicka at Aldi. what a tight arse one rose-that it?.

[Ronsaunders]

BAZZABAGGIES wrote:

Ronsaunders wrote: Again, there is one dealer on eBay (I won't mention names, but there's certainly a Las Vegas theme) who charge ridiculous amounts. £2.99 for mid 70's Villa with token removed, creased, folded etc etc. No wonder the hobby is almost on its' arse. Ron Saunders you sold Steve Bull from the Baggies to the Dingles what do you know. ? Anyone selling a programme for £2.99 POST FREE is okay by me. I just posted a modern programme because im a sensitve soul for £1.99 POST FREE.. It cost me £1.17 to post and take all the other costs off and i ended up with 26p profit... So stop moaning the days of bargain programmes are over this is 2015 thanks to The Royal Mail, Paypal, Ebay, ripping off us TAX PAYING DEALERS Ive just paid £3 for a fecking ROSE.

I'd be pissed off if I was paying £3 for a rose in the mid 1970's as that seems to be the definition of modern here. Unlucky for being the only person to pay tax too.

[treble99]

manchesterunitedman1 wrote:

treble99 wrote: a couple of points to pick up on here Sometimes dealers asking prices amaze me. That said dealers are professional sellers and must surely be expected to have a finger on the pulse of prices especially when what they are offering is not rare on the sense of not many exist and you never see it as opposed to something like a cup final just after the war As an example i note the 1948 between Manchester United v Blackpool being offered at around £200/250 This was at best £150 before the crash Now struggles mostly to get £100 There are hundreds of them permanently on sale so what are the dealers that offer them at that price hoping to achieve They either don't want to or expect to sell them or alternatively they are looking for mugs. There is no nice way to say that. If they find a mug then that mug will find out that he has had his arse slapped and may well fall out of love with the hobby at worst There will be no repeat business at best That leads me on to the myth about the rarity of the 1996 FA Cup final programme It was never a rare programme All bullshit put out to increase income Think about it Why would it be rare When they decide on the numbers of a programme to be printed they take into account the number of the expected crowd together with a well proven calculation of what percentage buy programmes and with the knowledge that a certain percentage buy more Add on to that pre orders that are known and you get a print run. It was a cup final with a guaranteed sell out It didn't piss down all day and ruin the programmes So why would there be a shortage? Answer was that there wasn't so why should there be a premium? Just a few extra words on the 1948 FA Cup Final. Ray is spot on about the pricing and i agree there can be no good reason why some dealers consistently have this around £249 BIN or even a tad less as it is clearly the most popular and available Cup Final out of all the ones played in the 1940's at Wembley. BUT there is another version which is the copy that was presented to the guests in the Royal Box area and although there are just an odd difference in the content the actual quality of the paper is such that the staples NEVER RUST through because the paper was a heavy "linen/weave" type that was not the cheap quality that the other 100,000 fans were offered. Furthermore, inside the RBox copy there was a slip of paper given to advise the dignatories that changes to theoriginal printed team line up's and let us face it who would be carrying a pen as it would take most of them two hands not to spill the fee bevvy/champers all over themselves and the deck as it was! Now i do have one or two of these "special editions" one of which was the Refs own copy I have had for 30years. As regards the pricing the Royal Box area had around 335 seats and i [including the Royalty] plus the programmes were simply not left on the seats they were given out by being placed in a hard backed folder with the Monarch's logo/emblem embossed on the cover. To locate such a special edition programme, team changes slip of paper, hard backed folder and not to forget the Luncheon Menu and Seating plan hosted by Wembley's MD Sir Arthur Elvin at lunch time knees up. So, 100,000 punters, say 60% buy a programme?? thats 60,000 in circulation and say 67 years later 50% are lost, thrown away, fall to bits that leaves 30,000 and lets just say my calculations are all inaccurate and only 10,000 copies are still lying around in various states of rusting and rotting away including those in collections-yet 335 of the special ones were issued and maybe there are 120 let in the same way, hidden and some in collections and MOST collectors may not even BE AWARE of the significance that they possess?, so with all this new found knowledge it is now going to come to pass that some RBox copies may well appear on ebay with all the big build up and all that jazz becasue to me the daft prices of the current crop of low quality editions are far too expensive but to find a Royal Box copy has to be something special and knowing that one of those 335 persons used to own it-may even have been the Kings! Well one such ebay seller recently who is no mug offered it on ebay for 250[not knowing anything about it other than it is in a near mint condition, then it never sold, so it went to 235 no sale then 225 no sale i asked after it failed to sell for the 3rd time-yes i will sell for 210 no lower-so i said no ta, back on ebay 210 never sold, 190 another week-never sold 185 never sold then i made my once and for all final offer and finally it was sold. As i do not collect any other club's programmes i cannot say i have seen a Royal Box copy for 1946-7-9 or any other year except for 1963 where i have a slightly different version so i suspect there was one produced for every final over the years since 1923 at Wembley at least. I now hope this inspires everyone to go and root out what they have and it would be more than interesting to learn if anyone has found a Royal Box version they never realised they actually had! i AM NOT GOING BE PREDICTABLE AND SHOW YOU THE PROGRAMME OR THE LUNCH MENU OR THE SLIP OF PAPER OR EVEN THE EMBOSSED HARD BACK COVER SO IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM THEN VISIT ME AT WWW.FLICKR.COM/PHOTOS/MANCHESTERUNITEDMAN1/SETS AND GO AND ROOT IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!

i am not sure what a mistake in not realising what a seller was offering has got to do with daft pricing but thanks for the info anyway